I was just wondering what all of you thought? In my opinion, it seems so easy for someone to take the papers for a dog and say they are for another dog! I know this wouldn't be right at all and i would never do this (actually i don't care about papers anyway) ......but there are bad people in beagling that ruin it for the many good ones. It just seems so hard to believe that the papers are correct on all the dogs when in actuality it would only take one dog with the wrong papers to screw up everything for every dog that follows it.
For example.....a dog passes away at an early age and you have great papers on the dog. You come across another beagle (grade) beagle. People looking to just make money might match the dog with the papers. IT IS VERY SAD....but you know there are people out there that do this!! Just looking to make a dollar! SO, to me.....papers don't really mean anything and i don't think you can really trust to many of them. I mean sure you might know the person that has owned a specific bloodline and know for sure that the papers are legit.......but papers go back many generations and it would only take ONE BAD PERSON or ONE MISTAKE to screw everything up. Grade dogs are just as good in many cases anyway!!!!!
I've even had a few buddies that have went to pick up a dog for sale that was supposed to be 3 or 4 years old and when arriving, noticed the dogs were much older......like 8 or 9. People just try to pass one by you!! It is actually very sad that a few people can ruin it for everyone with just one mistake!!!! Just looking for your opinions!!!?????!!!
Are Papers Right?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Bsbowhunter
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 3:25 am
- Location: Chesterfield, VA
Paper swapping
You are correct. I think that is why the bigger registries are going with DNA profiling. I think it's great and will prevent the situation you are talking about. My only "beef" is why doesn't the AKC except the UKC as a legit registry. In their eyes, if it's not AKC, then it's GRADE. The ironic twist to this, is that they both use the exact same lab for their DNA profiling. Interesting...... 
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Novice
BSbowhunter I may be abel to give you alittle insight to the AKC vs the UKC.
The AKC has a standing agreement with a world wide registry called FCI or (Federation of Caneology international) that they won't come into the us to register dogs and the AKC won't go out to the rest of the world.
The UKC has been petioning the FCI to become afiliated with them and as a result accept their registration pappers and eagerly transfer them to UKC.
I think that this gets under the AKC's skin due to the FCI basicaly getting around their agreement without breaking it.
This is just one instance. Also the Ukc will register one of these dogs without questiomwhile the AKC wants there to be at least 120 dogs of the particular breed and a specialty SHOW to be held every year sponcered by that particular breed before accepting them to be registered. Bottom line they are about money and shows.
the Ukc will writte on the pappers if the dogs are inbreed or not by their own definition while thw akc doesn't care. the UKC gives a three generation pedigree with their pappers while the AKC charges you for one if you want it.
thes manny diffirences can surely be a part of the problem with the registries.
The AKC has a standing agreement with a world wide registry called FCI or (Federation of Caneology international) that they won't come into the us to register dogs and the AKC won't go out to the rest of the world.
The UKC has been petioning the FCI to become afiliated with them and as a result accept their registration pappers and eagerly transfer them to UKC.
I think that this gets under the AKC's skin due to the FCI basicaly getting around their agreement without breaking it.
This is just one instance. Also the Ukc will register one of these dogs without questiomwhile the AKC wants there to be at least 120 dogs of the particular breed and a specialty SHOW to be held every year sponcered by that particular breed before accepting them to be registered. Bottom line they are about money and shows.
the Ukc will writte on the pappers if the dogs are inbreed or not by their own definition while thw akc doesn't care. the UKC gives a three generation pedigree with their pappers while the AKC charges you for one if you want it.
thes manny diffirences can surely be a part of the problem with the registries.
It's all about the "open registry". True, you can swap a set of papers on AKC dogs very easily. But, could'nt a hound be registered 2, 3 or more times with different owners in ARHA or UKC? Say I got a hound that has been barred. I pass the hound on and the new owner put a new set of papers on him. No one would know the difference? It may not be legal with the registries but it is very possible. I am sure there are lots of AKC registered hounds out there that have been registered with different names and competeing in the other 2 registries. Thus, the ORIGINAL bloodlines are LOST. It is too easy to throw the papers away and register the hound again at the next hunt.
Beisdes, why is UKC worried about AKC? I was told years ago by a top UKC official in the UKC Beagle program that they wanted NOTHING to do with AKC in any way. Even to the point that he said "We will never call our events trials". Just my thoughts....
Beisdes, why is UKC worried about AKC? I was told years ago by a top UKC official in the UKC Beagle program that they wanted NOTHING to do with AKC in any way. Even to the point that he said "We will never call our events trials". Just my thoughts....
There's no sure-fire way of guaranteeing lineage in any of the registries. They are all open to deception and a hound's information is only as good as the person/breeder's honesty throughout the decades. I'd say any paper swapping done in any of the registries years ago has affected the integrity of many of our bloodlines today.
DG TX, you said "True, you can swap a set of papers on AKC dogs very easily. But, could'nt a hound be registered 2, 3 or more times with different owners in ARHA or UKC?" It only takes one guy to falsify papers one time in AKC and anything that happens in that bloodline afterwards is meaningless. So, saying one registry is more accurate than another is just grading sin. They are ALL tainted and if we really knew the true extent it would probably scare us all to death.
We just have to do the best we can individually to maintain integrity and turn in anyone we know that doesn't "play by the rules".
DG TX, you said "True, you can swap a set of papers on AKC dogs very easily. But, could'nt a hound be registered 2, 3 or more times with different owners in ARHA or UKC?" It only takes one guy to falsify papers one time in AKC and anything that happens in that bloodline afterwards is meaningless. So, saying one registry is more accurate than another is just grading sin. They are ALL tainted and if we really knew the true extent it would probably scare us all to death.
We just have to do the best we can individually to maintain integrity and turn in anyone we know that doesn't "play by the rules".
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Don L
DC, I have to disagree on what you said about ,that you dont think you can really trust to many of them. You said there is people that are just looking to make a dollar. Those are the people to stay away from.
I have found that if you get to know the breeders and there dogs that they are very serouse and proud of what the breedings are on there dogs,and lying about some papers would be a sin. if your thinking that you dont know of any kennels that would be trust worthy ,then I would recomend to keep looking,do some homework and get to know some houndsmen. there is alot of good ones out there that you can trust.
I have found that if you get to know the breeders and there dogs that they are very serouse and proud of what the breedings are on there dogs,and lying about some papers would be a sin. if your thinking that you dont know of any kennels that would be trust worthy ,then I would recomend to keep looking,do some homework and get to know some houndsmen. there is alot of good ones out there that you can trust.
My only experience is really with the AKC, but there has been a "black-market" for papers in the past so that puppy mills could pass off non-AKC stock as AKC using the papers of other dogs. I don't know how much of it has been corrected.
If someone is selling you an "AKC registerable" puppy but refuses to give you the papers that go along with it (which is a lot different than selling a dog on a limited registration), that should raise a big red-flag and send you to another breeder.
If someone is selling you an "AKC registerable" puppy but refuses to give you the papers that go along with it (which is a lot different than selling a dog on a limited registration), that should raise a big red-flag and send you to another breeder.
"Beisdes, why is UKC worried about AKC? I was told years ago by a top UKC official in the UKC Beagle program that they wanted NOTHING to do with AKC in any way. Even to the point that he said "We will never call our events trials".
DGTX I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I don't think UKC is worried about AKC anymore than Ford is worried about Chevy. I have hunted in UKC "hunts" for coonhounds for years. They are not perfect but they have a good quality program. The best dog for hunting usualy rises to the top and the same dog wins no matter what part of the country you are in. The UKC beagle hunts are based on the same system.
I don't think any registry can be foolproof. Unless you raise the dog yourself or know the person that did you can't be 100% sure the papers are correct. Your best bet is to see for yourself what you are buying or breeding to and don't depend on papers too much.
DGTX I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I don't think UKC is worried about AKC anymore than Ford is worried about Chevy. I have hunted in UKC "hunts" for coonhounds for years. They are not perfect but they have a good quality program. The best dog for hunting usualy rises to the top and the same dog wins no matter what part of the country you are in. The UKC beagle hunts are based on the same system.
I don't think any registry can be foolproof. Unless you raise the dog yourself or know the person that did you can't be 100% sure the papers are correct. Your best bet is to see for yourself what you are buying or breeding to and don't depend on papers too much.
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Bob
DC,
If averages hold and you buy a pup from a breeder that produces more than 7 AKC litters a year you have about a 90% chance that the pup is from the two dogs specified. Of course you don't know if the "parents" are as claimed. If the male sires more than a certain number of litters a year it must have a DNA profile on file. The linage of that male is not required to be tested. If your breeder registers fewer litters per year... nobody knows.
In the AKC's first published DNA test results only about 8 out of 10 dogs/ pups (?) had correct papers. Now its up to around 9 out of 10. Their web site isn't too specific. They don't say if they did further checking at kennels that showed problems. I don't think they really want to know. For $500 they say they will check out a breeder and refund your money if your suspicions are correct- if you beleive that... They don't say how thoroughly they check or who actually does the work.
I assume your talking about breeders when you mention that there are "bad people in beagling that ruin it for the many good ones". I have to disagree. There aren't many good ones. Breeders and those who have been around for a while know who the "bad guys" are. They won't tell you and they do nothing to clean things up. Why? Just maybe they might want to try the same things themselves. Some even take money to promote the "bad guys".
When you buy a dog you are betting you are better at spotting fraud than a con man is at perpetrating that fraud. Your odds are not very good. The dollar amounts involved don't interest prosecutors and your legal fees will be more than the fraud cost you to begin with. Breeders know this. Breeders count on this to stay in buisness.
I'm sure there are honest breeders out there but don't plan on finding one. Flame away. I know the character of the people with the flamethrowers.
Bob
If averages hold and you buy a pup from a breeder that produces more than 7 AKC litters a year you have about a 90% chance that the pup is from the two dogs specified. Of course you don't know if the "parents" are as claimed. If the male sires more than a certain number of litters a year it must have a DNA profile on file. The linage of that male is not required to be tested. If your breeder registers fewer litters per year... nobody knows.
In the AKC's first published DNA test results only about 8 out of 10 dogs/ pups (?) had correct papers. Now its up to around 9 out of 10. Their web site isn't too specific. They don't say if they did further checking at kennels that showed problems. I don't think they really want to know. For $500 they say they will check out a breeder and refund your money if your suspicions are correct- if you beleive that... They don't say how thoroughly they check or who actually does the work.
I assume your talking about breeders when you mention that there are "bad people in beagling that ruin it for the many good ones". I have to disagree. There aren't many good ones. Breeders and those who have been around for a while know who the "bad guys" are. They won't tell you and they do nothing to clean things up. Why? Just maybe they might want to try the same things themselves. Some even take money to promote the "bad guys".
When you buy a dog you are betting you are better at spotting fraud than a con man is at perpetrating that fraud. Your odds are not very good. The dollar amounts involved don't interest prosecutors and your legal fees will be more than the fraud cost you to begin with. Breeders know this. Breeders count on this to stay in buisness.
I'm sure there are honest breeders out there but don't plan on finding one. Flame away. I know the character of the people with the flamethrowers.
Bob
First of all let me say that I have dogs of all registeries. In my humble opinion ALL of them are grade and there is NO surefire way to assure that their lineage is as cited on the so called "registration papers". In order for a dog to be purely of the lineage cited on the papers a person had to be able to certify each dog back to the very existance of it's lineage. This of course would entail that a means of paper swapping would also have to be ruled out for each and every dog throughout the ENTIRE lineage of that dog. The only means of doing so would be through DNA profiling and that procedure is being used very sparingly even today. With that being said, every dog whelped has a lineage that goes back to the very first set of papers on record with NO means of certifying that they in fact are the correct papers for each. But an even greater fact is that prior to that there were NO registeries or public records and the only records were what each may have kept for themselves. We all know that no dog is whelped with a golden set of verifiable registration papers in it's mouth so therefore, IMHO every dog that's ancestry can NOT be verified through DNA is nothing more than a grade dog (dog without verifiable lineage). The process of every dog being DNA profiled is the only way to do so from here on out but that will do nothing for whats been done in the past. It appears that the registries ALL have their work cut out for them. Until that time I will continue to hunt my registered "GRADE" dogs because isn't registered really grade and grade possibly registered.
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stanimals2
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:17 pm
- Location: Carroll Ohio
Ive said it before and Ill say it again, ANY SCUM TRADING PAPERS SHOULD BE SHOT and yes it happens all the time and yes they have even tainted the almighty AKC. I agree to a point that a grade dog is just that and always will be. But that doesnt mean they shouldnt be a registered dog. Example: I have a female that was givin to me by an old friend who could no longer hunt (he was in his seventies) I hunted with the dog many times and when I ask if she was registerd he said (could be) just never sent in the papers. He has since passed on and with him the only knowlege on this dogs bloodline. So heres a dog that should be AKC registered but can only be UCK or ARHA registered. does that mean shes not worthy of registration? Or just a grade dog? I think not, Stan
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Called Out
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:20 pm
- Location: Rolla , Mo.
This does happen all the time and it is WRONG , WRONG , WRONG , and it has happened with AKC. Last year when I was gone out of town someone stole my good dogs out of my kennels about 2 mths later a guy calls me and said I hear your looking for beagles I said if they are rabbit dogs lets talk when the guy shows up at my house low and behold in the back of his truck is 3 nice looking dogs when I looked at the dogs I almost fell over but didn't say a word he tell's me they are all 3 reg. and that he got them about a mth ago and is having a hard time getting them to come to him when he calls them and they were just to fast for his dogs so I keep pumping him for info and come to the conclution this guy is being honist with me he shows me the papers and they fit the dogs. I tell him thats some pretty good reg. dogs for the price he say's well I cant get them to listen to me so they are'nt doing me any good so I just want to get rid of them I unleashed the dogs on the ground and he say's you just bought them cause we'll never catch them I told him it helps when you call them buy their right names when I called them 2 of the 3 came right back the 3rd took a little more calling the guy ask what was going on I told funny thing is I have the right papers for 2 of them in the house and the 3rd is a grade dog when I told him what happen he was willing to give me the dogs back. To make a long story short he was taken buy a 3rd party thats still out there somewhere and someday he will slip up , Called Out
Isaiah 52 : 7 - How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings , that publisheth peace
One thing that really irritates me is that even when the AKC finds that a breeder is not keeping proper records or is using falsified registrations (like using a registered dog's papers - dead or alive - for an unregistered stud dog/breeding bitch), the worst they usually get is a 1-yr suspension from the AKC. I don't know why it's not considered a criminal act of FRAUD.