Who is breeding for the total dog. Form and function

TOUCHSTONE · Post by **TOUCHSTONE** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:07 am

I am interested in building a list of breeders who are interested in developing the beagle breed to it's fullest potential in both structure and function. Makes no difference what format or registry you are involved in. If the total dog philosophy is your goal add your name to the list or send me a message. Dan M

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:51 am

I certainly am breeding for both ability and conformation. I put ability before conformation but I want both. I have had great success in breeding coonhounds, I consider my self an accomplished breeder with them. Lots of dogs from my bloodlines have made Dual Grand Champions. I plan to use my breeding skills in a beagle program. You have to start with dogs that have the "complete package" and build a breeding program on that foundation.
I believe great conformation enhances ability.

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:59 am

YEA RIGHT

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:02 am

Is there anyone breeding that's NOT breeding for this on purpose? I've got to think anyone that breeds a couple of hunting beagles has thought about it being a good cross, we all probablly have different opinions of what that "total dog" is, but I'm sure everyone is trying to make crosses that will produce a dog that they like "totally".

dk

APFII · Post by **APFII** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:04 pm

houndsound wrote:Is there anyone breeding that's NOT breeding for this on purpose? I've got to think anyone that breeds a couple of hunting beagles has thought about it being a good cross, we all probablly have different opinions of what that "total dog" is, but I'm sure everyone is trying to make crosses that will produce a dog that they like "totally".

dk

From what I have seen Their are way to many breeders that do not try, or are unsuccesful, at matching up conformation and hunting ability.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:51 pm

APFII wrote:
houndsound wrote:Is there anyone breeding that's NOT breeding for this on purpose? I've got to think anyone that breeds a couple of hunting beagles has thought about it being a good cross, we all probablly have different opinions of what that "total dog" is, but I'm sure everyone is trying to make crosses that will produce a dog that they like "totally".

dk
From what I have seen Their are way to many breeders that do not try, or are unsuccesful, at matching up conformation and hunting ability.

That is probablly because it is a lot harder to do than one would think.

WVbunnyhunter · Post by **WVbunnyhunter** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:03 pm

Dan,
In due time I would like to start breeding for it. I have only been into beagling for a little over a year now. As a matter of fact my gyp just started her heat cycle and I am going to breed her to one of my males and see how that crosses.... If the pups get what I hope they do from each I will be one step closer. But like I said I am new at this, so it will take me a while to get where I want to be.

Chaffin Crank

APFII · Post by **APFII** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:35 pm

Blunder i agree that it is very hard to achieve, but if the trials set rewards for the dog that has both, it will speed development of this type of dog.

TC · Post by TC » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:37 pm

That is probablly because it is a lot harder to do than one would think.

Aint that the truth!!!!
it takes alot more than just crossin a good show dog with a good huntin dog to get a great dog I Would know We have been trying to do this very thing for a few years now and have just started to be able to fully understand what is involved in this!! Some times you have to look beyond the status of each dog and look at whats behind the dog Bloodlines pedigrees ect As a lot of folks on here can tell ya not all huntin champions will throw great pups just like throwin show champions together can be a disaster also!!!
Our Goal is as our moto Says
" From Field to show from show to field the way it should be"
Another thing that i see will come into play into this whole thing is EDUCATION
Educating Judges as to HOW to interpret the standard and WHY Dont just pick em cause ya think the are Pretty or you like a certain Aspect of the Dog liike thier head or Ears You Will need to look at the Total Dog until we can get the show Judges and the Bench judges together on this we are always gonna have 2 seperate hounds and that!! "Just Aint Right"
So Dan you can add our name to your list if it aint already there!
Crewse-N-Beagles

ringtail · Post by **ringtail** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:01 pm

i have seen some accidental breeding be very good crosses,,,,,,,,,now i dont think either dog was thinking about confirmation,,,,,

whiteriver · Post by **whiteriver** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:09 pm

one problem with this thread is that people have different veiws of what the total dog is .... so with that in mind who is to say their total dog is the right total dog ?

I have studied confirmation quite a bit and the problem i see is the difference between the more show type people compared to the more hunt type people .

the hunt oriented person may say "well i breed for the total dog my dogs have strait legs , no defects , and can flat pound rabbits all day "

To the more show oriented person this guy is not breeding for the total dog becayse maybe the dogs heads are not blocky enough or maybe they do not have perfect cat like feet ,etc......

One thing that always boggled my mind after reading up on confirmation ,and how these physical traits will give a hound the confirmation to run all day is that For Example , I purchased a 13 inch female DIRTY POND LEGACYS SPICE , which is out of haunted hill shaker and dirty pond liaka ,

spice is average looking not even close to being what some might call "world class" but she inspite of her faults(lol) according to the breed standard, CAN RUN ALL DAYYYYYY!!!!!

my point is if u look at a lot of the hare bred beagles who many could not finish on the bench in ukc , they have endless stamina ,

so i ask u how can that be , many of these hounds according to the breed standard should not be able to hold up like they do

maybe its because a dogs HEART is more important than anything when it comes to holding up hour after hour ?

HEART OR CONFIRMATION = STAMINA ,LONGEVITY,AND GRIT ?
(maybe its some of both )

MITCH GOULD
WHITE RIVER BEAGLES

ringtail · Post by **ringtail** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:49 pm

well said mitch,,,,,,,,,,,

Tim H · Post by **Tim H** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:23 pm

I think the fact that a hound can run all day is one focus of conformation but it isn't all that matters. Stamina is not the only focus of conformation. A dog should be efficient and fluid with it's movement, which reduces the likelyhood of injury.

The smallest fault in a dog, may not effect that dogs stamina and that dog may remain injury free throughout it's life. The offspring of that dog and future generations may lose stamina and be prone to injury as the fault becomes more prominant because it was ignored since it didn't effect the first dog.

Becoming too narrowly focused on what makes a total dog can be problematic because other aspects are ignored that will show up generations from now.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:09 am

That's good Tim

A tragic example (differebt breed) of what can happen when we don't pay attention:
NFC-AFC San Jauquin Honcho was the worlds leading stud dog of any breed (until Maxx came along) producing more titled dogs than any dog in history. A quarter of a century later we discover that he was a carrier of Muscular Myophia
Then there is Maxx (2xNAFC FC 2xCNAFC Ebonstar Lean Mac). Besides being a 4x national winner he has sired 42 national stake qualifiers and >108 field champions (so far), but is a suspected carrier of EIC. Stop and think about what influence that will have on the gene pool over the next quarter century. We constentlly look at small faults and don't think they will matter, without thinking about what they may cause 25 years from now.

tom

whiteriver · Post by **whiteriver** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:53 am

tim i agree with u completely , obviously there is more than stamina involved in confirmation , u mentioned injuries ,there is also being ble to run at old age , birthing problems ,etc.....

i guess my point is that a hound does not have to be ,how do i say without stepping on someones feelings , Akc multibreed material in order to be an exceptional hound with no faults including all the above we mentioned , i hope i made sense lol

i just feel there is more of a problem with people breeding for show only than hunt only in the world of beagles today .

thee are some things in the breed standard i do not agree with also such as the fact that u see a lot of BOXY type dogs winnings big shows ,these dogs have no length to allow for lung expansion or reach when they are actually running ....

a trademark in our bloodline is nice square heads/muzzles , i have been advised by some people to slim down the head size because of eventual birth problem , what is funny is that those big square heads are often picked on the bench lol

if u look at a lot of big time show lines that are suppost to have premier confirmation , many of their females have to gave sesections do to oversized heads

what i rally was adressing in my post is the fact that their is no way to define the total dog in a way that everyone agrees upon and will ultimetly breed for .......

thanks,
mitch