ARHA LP VERSUS A.K.C. MIDWEST

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Chain rock
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ARHA LP VERSUS A.K.C. MIDWEST

Post by Chain rock »

Might be a stupid question, but what is the major difference between ARHA LP dogs and AKC Midwest dogs. I know they are different formats and are scored differently, but is Midwest based soley on how a dog runs in the pack? Are jump's and check's not scored? I have heard of a couple of instances where dogs were picked up because of Skirting, Reaching or running in front of the pack. Aren't Midwest dogs considered to have about the same foot as LP dogs? If this is true , to me personally I would think that most competitive hunters and trialers would want a dog that runs to catch a rabbit regardless of the other dogs in the pack. I have also heard others say that a downside to LP dogs is that they swing too much to be able to circle a rabbit. I too have noticed dogs at LP trials that swing and cut. Is this do to being over competitive , the bloodline of the dog, or just how the dog was trained? Me personally, I would think that a champion dog in ARHA should be able to succeed in Midwest competition and vice versa. Not bashing either , just wanting to learn more about different formats and different styles of dogs.

mybeagles
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Post by mybeagles »

In my experience AKC is more competetive event. People travel from larger geographical regions to attend. Most of the AHRA trials I have attended were primarily locals. Ive known guys to champion dogs in AHRA, but really struggle to compete in AKC events. However, dogs that finish in AKC seem to finish quick in AHRA. I know of 2 that finished in 3 trials, one of which was entered in 8-9 AKC trials and never placed.
It somewhat depends on the judges, but they do tolerate rougher dogs in AHRA. Some believe that means there faster, but I guess that can be debated.
Perhaps the best way to answer this question is to attend a couple of each of the events. It wont take long and you will see the pro's and con's of each. Typically guys migrate to one format or the other.
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Jamie Rice
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Post by Jamie Rice »

Will,
No question is a stupid question... As for as any major diferent between ARHA Little Pack and AKC MWBGA dogs... Just the way they're judged for the most part. Checks are scored in AKC and while the AKC SPO rules standard doesn't provide merit to be given for jumps, most judges will tell you if they have dogs close on score jumps are taken into consideration when determining the better of the dogs. In AKC SPO, there are rules against swinging(aka reaching), skirting... however a few Midwest judges take liberty in demeriting such. In other words, some judges will let them get by with more than others(this is the biggest reason you see a great different in one SPO sect compared to another). As an officer for the Midwest Beagle Gundog Association I will not tell you Midwest dogs are any cleaner than ARHA Little Pack or vice versa. There's good and bad in both and there's rough and rougher in both. I agree somewhat that swinging and cutting can be attributed to over competiveness. However I will also add it's due to lack of patience and determination as well. I'm sure everyone has an opinion in regards to such and to each their own. As for bloodlines there are some that are more suited for Midwest as the same can be said for ARHA Little Pack. For example, you wouldn't take a dog from Short's(very successful in UBGF) to a trial in ARHA LP or AKC MW. And vice versa for a Branko, Northway, or like style hound to UBGF or Brace...

A cleaner ARHA Little Pack should be just as competitive in AKC SPO in MWBGA as he is in Little Pack. Some $hit stirrers will say ARHA Little Pack dogs are prejudged before they get to AKC, etc. etc. etc. STRAIGHT UP THAT'S AN EXCUSE BY SOMEONE THAT GOT BEAT OR TOO IGNORANT TO ADMIT THEIR DOG WASN'T ON ITS GAME THAT PARTICULAR DAY! Everyone's on the same playing ground and there's no prejudice towards anyone. UKC guys and ARHA guys have just as much chance of placing and winning trials as AKC SPO MW regulars do. If it wasn't you wouldn't have two ARHA World Champions that have finished in the Midwest and New England large pack. Guys like Kevin Monroe, Tom Floyd, Ron Wagner, Jimmy Abshire, and several other ARHA guys have had good success in AKC SPO and Large Pack in the Midwest Association and other areas. Thus I welcome you to come visit and enter a MW trial and see if you like things for yourself. That's only way you're going to know whether your dogs will be successful there or not.
Last edited by Jamie Rice on Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jamie D. Rice
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Run&Gun
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Post by Run&Gun »

C/Rock that is a darn good question, as I had the many of same questions you have.
I would like to know if their are any Midwest format hunts held in northern or Mid Ohio area, or Southeast Michigan? I would like to see for myself the style of dog, and style of judges.
My delemma, like many trialers, I own an "in-betweener". He is to fast and "rough" for ARHA PP, and not fast or "rough" enough for LP. This dog does have a cast win and cast second in three try's in UKC, but I just don't like the UKC H&H format.

C/Rock thanks for bringing up subject, I apologize, i not mean to tread on your thread.

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Jamie Rice
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Post by Jamie Rice »

Run & Gun... there's Midwest Assocation clubs across Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky, Arkansas, etc. ect.

In OHIO...
Great Miami Beagle Club in Camden, OH
Jackson County Beagle Club in Jackson, OH
North Central Ohio Beagle Club in Larue, OH

IN MICHIGAN
Blue Water Beagle Club in Capac, MI
Westland Beagle Club in Harrison, MI

For more information on our clubs and their locations feel free to visit
http://www.mid-west-gundog.com

We have a forum there as well if you'd like to join in our discussions.
Jamie D. Rice
FUZZ'S BEAGLES
"I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." - Philippians 4:13 KJV

huckleberry
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Post by huckleberry »

Very good point fuzz, have a lot of respect for a guy not on here just to bash any certain organization, I run NKC LP and have noticed a lot of guys packing cleaner and very nice running hounds doing just as good or better than the rough stuff, alot of guys like the NKC LP just because you dont have to travel as far, and they still get to compete there hounds!

AV Spencer
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Post by AV Spencer »

I have attended several ARHA LP hunts and ONLY two AKC MW hunts.

I haven't been to enough AKC MW hunts to say much. However, my second hunt my entire series of hounds only stayed down for 18 minutes. The first four or five minutes, at least, we were trying to put the hounds on a rabbit.

I will go back and try more. I like the idea. I have entertained the idea of becoming an AKC judge.

The styles are similiar. I think good dogs are good dogs.

AV
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Run&Gun
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Post by Run&Gun »

Fuzz thanks for the information, when the weather cools and trials get in full swing, I will attend a Midwest trial for sure. Thanks

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Chief Long Hair
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Post by Chief Long Hair »

Fuzz, I coundn't have said it better. We at Wild Hare Kennels haven't tried ARHA's LP yet but it's on our list to do. Fuzz, you know how successful we've been with Blue in AKC's MW, 3 seconds for him. If only he were a little faster those seconds could've been firsts. AKC's Southern Large Pack Asso., (SLPA), is more his style due to his cleaner, more conservative, running style because the judges down there take a harder look at the dog up front. A mistake there is only magnified because the judges are looking hard at that type of dog. I think he would aslo do well in the LP format.

I'll say the same thing as Fuzz. You need to try AKC's different formats at least a few times before you make a determination whether you like it or not. Midwest would probably fit the LP format best. SLPA could fit a slightly slower but cleaner running dog too, too bad they're way down south though. My best advise is find a freind here or somewhere that can show you the ropes at an AKC hunt, you might even be surprised how easily you can meet freinds there. I'd be more than glad to help just about anyone here. Heck, I'm trying to start an AKC MW club in southwestern Indiana and I can use all the dog enteries I can get my hands on. Hope this helps.

Da Chief
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beerdrinking bob
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Post by beerdrinking bob »

i think its easier to finish arha because each club can have 8 trials a year. i have 4 or 5 clubs within 2 hours of my house that gives me a chance to attend 30 to 40 hunts a year in my area. i havent ran an akc trial in almost 10 years. in a post on this topic fuzz stated checks are scored. i wasnt aware that they scored dogs at all in akc. i thought it was just the judges discretion witch dog they thought did the best. no points to add when the hunt was over.

Kansas Mike
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Post by Kansas Mike »

You are correct bob, there is no set point system for SPO. However, I had a system to keep up with accomplishments. I put check marks for checks, GH for good hunt ... There is no point system for faults either. If a dog repeated a fault that I thought was taking away from the pack's ability to run the rabbit, I would get with the other judge and if we agreed, we would pick that dog up. The bottom line is that judges are responsible for picking the best dog regardless of the scoring system.

Mike

beerdrinking bob
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Post by beerdrinking bob »

thanks mike i thought thats how it worked. i may have misinturpeted what fuzz was saying i didnt know if they had changed something since i ran my last akc trial

mybeagles
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Post by mybeagles »

The guys I have been judging with seem to adopt the AKC LP scoring format. 10,7,5, etc for placement in running a marked line. 15 for a clean check minus 10 for fault with pick up for serious fault......Only judged with one guy that didnt score, who just came up with his top 5 or 6. I personally think its easier if both judges adopt a similar way of scoring the hounds to make placing the hounds fair, not just the more opinionated judge making all the calls....I dont think AKC needs to adopt a rigid scoring system, as judges can use some discretion and ensure the right dogs place where they should. In AHRA and UKC a rigid scoring system is used and even when its quite obvious a hound was thoroughly beat, if the scoring went in favor of another hound, that dog would advance. The AKC format has the potential to allow for more favortism, but judges of this nature are quickly identified and are starting to be avoided.....
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JIMMIE ABSHIRE
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Post by JIMMIE ABSHIRE »

Me personally i like the akc format better . I fill like it takes a better dog to come out on top . 1 hour cast suck , even though akc seems to rush things till the winner pack .If you are lucky enuff to get in winners pack there are judges that will let em roll . I also like the ideal of judging off horses.
So over all i will go with AKC :nod: . So i know what lots of you are gonna say , But the nkc is still fun . Lots of friends in both
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L.J. McKenzie
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Post by L.J. McKenzie »

i run nkc but only because there are more local hunts. i would compare an akc fc to an nkc grch.

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