The American Beagler Forum

I was just reading a few posts about a couple guys fueding over a dog transaction. The thing that struck me was,.... both parties agreed in principal to a planned breeding of a young, unproven female as soon as they could squeeze pups out of her.
This just struck me as totally irresponsible on their part..!! A young hound, not even big enough to fill out a dog collar, with a planned litter already..Come on boys, you're both well regarded beaglers. Are you running puppy mills..??
Explain it to me and a few others, why you would breed a hound, regardless of ability..??

I agree w/ you, and I'm not saying I condone this, but there are a lot of brood bitches that don't know WTF a rabbit is and are bred solely on their pedigrees.

i agree.i think that's what's wrong with alot of the pups today.i know a few people that will breed females because they look good or they are bred a certain way.they have ask me if i wanted to buy a pup and i ask them if the dam is a good dog and most of the time they say"i don't know i just keep her to raise pups out of"!then they wonder why their pups never turn out!!!

If you breed to junk you usually get junk.We should breed good dogs to good dogs. We should breed because of the quality uf hounds,not just a pretty set of papers.It would make the whole breed stronger.

just guessing i would think your talking about the discussion over the iron eagle female i was in,well i like the dogs out of iron eagle and since he is dead and no way to get anything out of him anymore,when you have a female out of a sire you want,you breed to it,that is why i would breed an unproven female to a sire.

answer me this,if you had a male that was the best rabbit dog in the world but never been in a trial,would you refuse to breed to it just cause it isn't a field champion?

and who said she was to be bred as soon as she could squeez pups out?no-one did,he was suppose to run her and trial her

well im going to reply to this in several different ways i know where danny is coming from i had one of the best males id ever owned or even seen but when i had him i wasn't interested in breeding him i was just running dogs well i breed him once at 7 yrs old and raised 3 pups 2 where lost to freak accidents and the other went to a pet home i got her back some years latter and raised some fine rabbit dogs from her i can say there has been a time or two that ive seen that situation. now agian i deal with horses and most dog people are like horse people they breed pedigress and looks. this has almost ruined the walking horse world i know of alot of stables that will keep 10 or 20 mares that have never shown any type of gate and breed them to studs that are the same just because of who there grandpa was. beagles are the same ive seen guys buy hounds knowing there never going to hunt them or buy pups with the sole intention of keeping it for breeding some will argue genitics are gentics and they want change if its in the dogs blood its going to run just becasue its parents didn't get a chance doesn't mean the pups want make good ones. so this is a hard subject to touch on but those are my thoughts on it.

Would I breed an unproven dog on purpose, no. But what's even funnier to me then that is people loosing sleep on what others are breeding in their kennels. People say stuff like, "thats whats wrong with beagles today". Well, if anyone has such good dogs, and folks are out there just breeding junk, you should be thankful as it will only increase the value of your dogs and superior breeding program.

I've just never understood how anyone's breeding program, real good or real bad will effect me? I hunt what I like and breed what I like..... if you just do that and don't worry what others are doing you'd be alot happier. so the original question was " Explain it to me and a few others, why you would breed a hound, regardless of ability..??" The answer would be because they wanted to, and I assure they won't hurt anyone in doing it.

Just my thoughts.

dk

I have seen some awful good papers produce some really bad dogs. I have seen two really good dogs produce bad ones too. I like my chances using two good running dogs with good papers.

if ten guys pulled out ten sets of papers on thier dogs,out of that 100 sets of papers how many nice hounds do you think come from non champion females bred to nice males?

i don't have to explain what i do but i will this,i do not trial females,there is another topic for ya,anyway,i don't trial females for one big reason,my luck sucks and i have two females in heat and two more tryin to come in and what time is it?
world hunt time,i don't want to run a female all year,get her qualified and leave her at home cause she is in heat.

that is my choice to not trial females,so i still run females to see how they hunt,run a line,foot ect. before i breed them,if i don't like them i get rid of them,if i like them i keep them and use them as brood bitches.

and if that makes me a puppy mill,well so be it,i run a puppy mill,i didn't know i had to run it by the board first,sorry,missed that memo,must be under my issue of dog jockiers are us

What is your definition of a proven hound? AKC Champion? HA! Which format or association proves that a dog can jump and circle a rabbit back to the gun?
I agree with your premise that if you are going to breed you should spend a day in the field with the dog. Listening to opinions on bulletin boards will not produce good dogs. It seems ribbon chasing has taken precedence over sound hound work. Check out the dogs for sale. Most all have great "champions" in their pedigrees.

If I am not mistaken,as long as I have been in this sport.Dogs like eagle and other have come and gone. eagle and others have sons who are f.c. titles and arha little pack, rb champs. shouldnt that be good enough to carry the line on of proven sires and rabbit hounds to breed to. As for breeding the bitch who cares,If danny thinks he knows what would cross up well with her why not, she will be breed sonner or later.

I had a female pup go to a well known beagler a few years back. All I heard from him was how she wasn't a rabbit dog, and that none of the females in this litter must have turned out worth a darn. All the male pups seemed fine in his eyes, but as I stated not the females. He had ran this female quite a bit, and did not like her. This can happen, but what totally floored me was, after I had gotten tired of just being flat out taken advantage of by this guy for several reasons, and decided to end this one sided friendship, I see a puppy ad for a male that was out of his deceased FC crossed with this so called "worthless" female. You can bet in the ad she was described as the greatest thing since sliced bread! He has a gift for gab, and is a BS artist! Did it end here? Nope. He repeated the same cross the very next time she came in heat! People bought these pups because of the reputation of the stud dogs sire, and a reputation he did deserve. But if the female was not a rabbit dog, and he even admitted it, why do the cross at all, let alone twice? MONEY! I feel that the female has at least half of what has to do with the outcome of a litter. I'm not saying she has to have a fancy title, but she should at least be able to run a decent rabbit. There's nothing wrong with looking at a pedigree on a young pup and thinking about what the future may bring, but at least make sure she has proven herself in the field before you breed her until her uterous falls out in the driveway! It's a sad thing that some people are willing to live a life of lies and deceit just to make a buck, but thats exactly what he did. All for the almighty dollar! But, I guess if he didn't do that, he'd actually have to get a real job and work for a living! Honesty and character are things some men have, and unfortunatly some don't! I don't in any way shape or form think that this is what Danny was trying to do at all. But because some low lifes do, a big red flag flies up when you read about things like this.

I say line breed to paper with proven line bred dogs and you have a better chance producing solid hounds than outcrossing a couple field champions. Many field champions are worthless in my opinion and I have seen some excellent gungogs that have never seen a trial. Common sense must be exercised no matter how you breed.
I think the biggest problem is when someone outcrosses two no name dogs just to sell pups for $75.00 a piece. I see them in the local paper all the time and occasionally on these forums.
I will add it is better to ensure there are no bad traits before breeding any dogs... like babbling, backtracking, etc. The type of things you can't correct.
Bottom line is to line breed proven dogs and if you are able to breed to a field champ from a proven line bred program that is even better. Last, I will outcross to a special dog but he has to be the real deal. Duke's dog Dutch is a dog that fits that description. I plan to breed my Branko bitch to him and keep at least two females. The rest will be placed amongst a tight circle of beaglers to monitor this breeding and rate it's success. I have rasied three litters in a decade of beagling. I am not in it for anything but pure enjoyment. The puppy mills and dog jockeys that breed and sell dogs to turn a few dollars are the ones to watch out for, period! Visit these boards long enough and any dumb arse can tell who they are immediately.

I am going to answer this in a couple of ways, a good breeding program has an eye to the future, and also sets stringent standards. I have got to support Danny in this, one because he obviously knows what he is doing by what he has been producing, and two his anger over how the female was treated shows he has standards and cares about these hounds and is not just breeding them for money.

I recently purchased a puppy out of the Reggie Dog strictly with plans too breed her on her second heat. Will she be proven by then, depends on your standards. She will not be any kind of field champion, but I will be sure she is showing the traits of a good rabbit hound. I like the mix of tight Branko with an outcross to the hounds in my line which are good all around cottontail rabbit dogs with hunt and brains. You have to plan for the future, you can always change your mind if the pup does not live up to your standards. Look to the honesty of the breeder, is he a puppy mill or a stand up guy or girl with a set of standards and a PLAN.

Ed, thanks for your kind words and I do think the breeding you ans I are planning is both of high standard and has its eye on the future.

I agree with Jonnyringo. If the pedigrees are proven to be a a good blood line then you can breed based on blood, but i wouldn't breed an outcross unless the dogs where proven.

Line breeding isn't always 100% anyways. You can breed two FC's and still have one or two pups not worth a penny. You can take two line bred beagles that have never ran a rabbit and get an entire litter of rabbit smokin beagles. When the sire and dam are both the same blood your going to breed simular traits. Some traits may be the homerun your looking for, or they could be nothing worth feeding.

For example only:
Branko blood bred to branko blood (no outcrosses) will throw qaulity litters. This is true with all of these blood lines out there. Don't try to breed branko to patch and think your safe, because your not. Out crosses should be out of proven dogs! IF the patch male is a proven dog, and the branko female is a proven dog, your chances of producing quality rabbit dogs is always much higher.

All of us can look and make these future plans becasue we have seen or heard of simular crosses working, but when it all comes back to being full circle we may all be wrong anyways. Thats what makes it all FUN.