How MUST a Beagle be registered?

[Aaron Bartlett]

This question kind of came to the surface on another thread and I just got to wondering what everyone thinks.
As far as im concerned a Beagle must be AKC registered before I am interested. I know that there are lots of good dogs out there that are not registered at all but I want them to be registered AKC if I buy them...... Its just a personal preference I guess. Im not saying there is anything wrong with NKC/ARHA, UKC, PKC,CKC or any other registry. If they were registered AKC and another registry, that would be a added bonus as far as im concerned.

[MIKE BELLAMY]

i like them to be akc reg.... most of the others papers you can get at any time if you want them !!!!!!

[Hunter]

This is something I have thought about and have had some people agree. The papers are only as legitimate as the people that have done all the breeding all the way back. No matter which registry if you have dishonest people that were doing the breeding they could have just as easily registered some pups out of another hound and claimed them to be authentic. In the past I had trouble getting my papers for a female Dachshund and after about 2 years I recieved my AKC papers and the parents were about 6 months old when she was supposedly born. Sounded kinda fishy to me. But , All things said papers don't hurt.

[Bev]

I'd prefer they were AKC registered because I want the freedom to play in any arena that suits me, but one of my favorite hounds, Maxx (my avatar) is a "non-AKC" registered dog and he'll never leave my kennel. I've had more than one person tell me Maxx looks like he's Jacks Iron Mike bred, and he came from the right area to be, but no papers came with him, so....

How's that Darrin - sounds better than "grade" hound, huh?

[J.Murphy]

I prefer dogs with AKC papers .I spend alot of time studying pedigrees. I like the traits that certain bloodlines produce.Yes I know that papers wont run the rabbit and papers can be faked but we try to deal with reputable folks.I have found that when it comes time to sell a pup the #1 question that people ask is whether the pup is AKC registered or not.I have never had anyone ask whether they were registered any other way.This does not mean that other dogs arent as good.Like Darren the best dog I ever saw wasnt registered at all.

[DarrinG]

I guess the dog must be registered with whatever registry the person feeding it wants it to be!

Seriously though, all my current hounds are AKC. I prefer my hounds to be AKC, mainly for the record keeping the AKC maintains. And I also like to take in an AKC SPO trial on occasion.

I know the AKC is far from perfect, but they have far & away the best record system going. However, many folks seem to look down on un-registered hounds and this shouldn't be! Most un-registered beagles originated from "registered" stock and somewhere down the road someone decided the paperwork wasn't really important and the paper-trail ended. Most knowledgable houndspeople can tell if a hound is mixed up with a cocker spaniel or if it is a true beagle in most instances.

As I have already said, the very best beagle I have had the pleasure of owning was an un-registered female. Man could she put on a clinic! Oh man how I wish I still had her.

[Redtick]

I have some beagles registered with all of the major registries, UKC, ARHA-NKC, PKC, and AKC. But, I have never had anyone requiring a dog be a certain registry before they bought the puppy. There is one registry I do not use much because it is expensive and not cost effective to me. I do not feel my dogs that are not registered in that registry are any less than my dogs that are. As Alabama John said, a set of papers can be bought for about any dog for about $20 at any trade day. I do have some of my dogs DNA profiled and will have more in the future. That is true proof of parentage.

[DarrinG]

Redtick,

While I agree that what registry a dog is involved with does not matter, DNA testing is NOT a foolproof method as you imply. I have done quite alot of reading on DNA testing in the manner most registries do it and it really is "inconclusive".

Bev, chime in here and give all of us the low-down on DNA testing as it is done now. I remember a post you made some time back that was Excellent on why DNA was not the answer in the manner it is being done currently.

[Redtick]

Yes, let's hear the downside of DNA. There is one registry that has hunts for up to $15,000 for dog where the dogs must be DNA profiled to hunt. Are people paying all of this money for nothing?

[Aaron Bartlett]

The way I understand it, there are different methods used in DNA testing. I have had many dogs DNA profiled and I think its a bunch of hogwash! There isnt any way a envelope with a swab can be sent in the mail, any old Joe open the envelope, stumble out to the kennel, take the swab out of the envelope, rub it on the dogs gums for awhile, put it back in the envelope and send it back in the mail without it being contaminated! Anyone that says different.....well I will argue with them all day long!
Just my 2 cents!

[Bev]

Don't quote me on this because I don't know if AKC has changed its practice of using mitochondrial DNA strands for testing, but if they are still using it, it is horribly inconclusive. You see, only female DNA shows up on a mitochondrial strand. The male DNA is not passed down. The only thing it can guarantee you is that sometime in the pedigree, two dogs have shared a common female. From sample testings they have found common female mitochondrial strands in those of wolves and dogs, so...... my guess is that somewhere back in there, all of our hounds have shared a female.

As far as I know, UKC is the only one doing Nuclear DNA testing on dogs - actually taking it down to the cellular level. That type of testing can tell you if you have a litter fathered by two males, which puppies belong to which sire. UKC was the first registry to introduce DNA testing and they appear to have taken it the farthest. If I had a parentage question in an AKC registered dog, I'd be money ahead to register them all UKC and have UKC profile them rather than throw my money away on mitochondrial testing.

As Aaron said, when first building a DNA library, it's no more accurate than a pedigree if folks are dishonest about which dog's DNA they are sending in.

[J.Murphy]

Nice post.

[Aaron Bartlett]

Bev,
Im smarter than Powell is (you can tell him I said that ) but Im not smart enough to know how to tell one kind of DNA test from another. Does each way have a different procedure in the way the DNA is collected? Does the DNA kit say on it what kind of test they use? Like I said before I have taken alot of DNA from dogs but never really looked into which way they do it, I just did what the directions told me to and tried not to spit on the swab before or after rubbing it around in the dogs mouth and then sent it off in the mail. There was never a question on any that I did but I always wondered how much of my DNA showed up on the swab! LOL!

[Bev]

I don't think it says on the AKC kit, it just has the directions. The best thing I know to do is call them, ask for someone in that department, and if they can't tell you which method they are using, I'd have to question it big-time.

This deal of DNA profiling sires after 3 litters in a year or 7 in a lifetime is just a way to set up the "library" so that parentage issues that come up later can hopefully be resolved. I can send in DNA from an ol' redbone coon dog instead of my beagle FC and they won't know any different unless someone down the line questions a pup I sold them that I reported to be out of my FC. And what about the person that never breeds more than two litters a year or 6 in a lifetime from any one male, and does not participate in the program? What happens to the gene pool then? How complete is their DNA library, and why are the rest of us knocking our brains out and contributing all that money to the cause?

I'm no expert on Canine DNA testing. What little knowledge I have I stumbled upon in the course of my studies on wolves, canine behaviors and the wolf/dog connection. That's why my eyebrows flew up when I got the announcement from AKC a few years ago that one more litter and my male would have to be DNA profiled. As of today, scientists still can't tell the DNA from a wolf from the DNA of a Chihuahua.

If they are indeed using mitochondrial DNA strands to establish their library, then they are behind the times and DNA profiling the wrong dogs, anyway. They need to be profiling the dams. All you will get from the sire is his mother's, aunt's grandmother's etc. mitochondrial strands. The way we line breed, can you imagine how inconclusive any of that type of DNA profiling can be? I will need more detailed information from AKC before I give them a dime on DNA profiling. I don't do that much breeding to be faced with the requirement. I'm one in the "what happens now?" group I suppose.

If any of this is of interest to you, here's a link that explains it much better than I, and will give you additional links to other canine DNA research sources:
http://www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm

[Redtick]

I will start off by stating I have never used the procedure used by AKC. It doesn't sound very good to me. I am sitting here looking at a recent DNA Analysis of Lakeland's Cricket, the dog in the avatar. It was done by MMI Genomics, Inc. and cost $40. It has a statement on the certificate that states "The following genotype uniquely represents the MMI Genomics-certified genetic identity of the animal named herein:" It then has a color coded bar and below that, it has a line of letters like BD EE AB DE ect. Below the letters, in smaller print, in grey letters sideways are letters and numbers printed sideways. To be honest, I haven't got a clue to what it all means but I am very confident that if there was any question that a pup or a grown dog is out of Cricket, a DNA sample can be taken of that dog and matched against her analysis, and proof of whether the dog is out of her or not will be produced. The sire of her last litter of pup was also DNA profiled. So if anyone would put a set of AKC papers on a pup out of her and him and we knew about it, we could have them prosecuted.
I might ad that MMI Genomics, Inc. is used by both UKC and PKC.