Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

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Shotgun John
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Shotgun John »

mybeagles wrote:
The question is "Did I breed it into my dogs?" and the answer is Yes.....if it shows up or not depends on what they are bred too, but it is in the dogs genes.

Mybeagles

I have to disagree. If Doube D's Joshua is a carrier, so is Double D's Litt Man Bo Hanky as they are full brothers. That's why you can't cull part of a litter of pups and better the breed as some say. You would have to do away with all the pups and the parents or one parent. I don't care to try to better the breed, just my pack and kennel.

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by mybeagles »

Shotgun John,

Does a carrier have the potential to pass on a trait to the next generation?

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Salzer mtn
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Salzer mtn »

In my opinion their are so many spo dogs that have crooked legs or carry the resessive gene for it that whatever female John breed's to in the furure, that style will produce some crooked legged pups anyway in the litter.

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Tim H
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Tim H »

Shotgun John wrote:If Doube D's Joshua is a carrier, so is Double D's Litt Man Bo Hanky as they are full brothers. That's why you can't cull part of a litter of pups and better the breed as some say. You would have to do away with all the pups and the parents or one parent.
My understanding (which is admittedly limited) of genetics is that ALL of the pups of one litter will not necessarily carry the undesirable gene unless they are identical twins (which would be a whole other conversation above my knowledge). However assuming FULL brothers are not identical twins, one could be the carrier while the other is not. Culling part of the litter is exactly how a breeder attempts to eliminate the undesirable genes. The most desirable way to eliminate the undesirable gene is to not breed to dogs with the gene in the first place.

I hope someone with a better more scientific understanding of genetics can clarify this with some facts.
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Shotgun John
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Shotgun John »

mybeagles wrote:Shotgun John,

Does a carrier have the potential to pass on a trait to the next generation?

Mybeagles
Yes.
Tim H wrote:
Shotgun John wrote:If Doube D's Joshua is a carrier, so is Double D's Litt Man Bo Hanky as they are full brothers. That's why you can't cull part of a litter of pups and better the breed as some say. You would have to do away with all the pups and the parents or one parent.
My understanding (which is admittedly limited) of genetics is that ALL of the pups of one litter will not necessarily carry the undesirable gene unless they are identical twins (which would be a whole other conversation above my knowledge). However assuming FULL brothers are not identical twins, one could be the carrier while the other is not. Culling part of the litter is exactly how a breeder attempts to eliminate the undesirable genes. The most desirable way to eliminate the undesirable gene is to not breed to dogs with the gene in the first place.

I hope someone with a better more scientific understanding of genetics can clarify this with some facts.

I asked someone who did study animal genetics and the opinion I got was that what most breeders are doing is covering up what they genetically have in their kennels. If culling only the ones with visible defect fixes the problem, Then I am good to go right. If I hadn't post a picture of Josh, you would never known that them dogs was sired by a crooked leg dog. Will it pop up again. Sure, sooner or later an offspring will get bred to dog and there it will be. I have a feeling that is true with most beagles especially the ones in the south. I could be wrong ( been wrong before) but there is a awful lot of talk about culling. What are they culling if their lines are all that. I hope I haven't offended no one, I just thought this was a topic worth discussing. I am learning and this is something that I feel is swept under the rug a lot of times. I don't like crooked leg dogs even tho I am not going to say it hinders the dog. I haven't seen that. Will my dogs be throwing crooked leg dogs in the future. Only time will tell. I know this. If I had just took one of the females to a stud, I still ran the risk of crooked legs.

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Laneline »

In subjects like this {and a few others} is why a person must use the words should, might, theoretically etc… because when it comes to breeding and even genetics, unexpected surprises always pop up. What should happen, might happen or what theoretically should be the outcome of certain crosses, always isn’t. In looks, traits or characteristics.

Scientifically, we know both parents “must” be carriers in order for the disease to appear, but that does not necessarily mean that every pup in the litter will have, carry or pass the gene. What a person would want to simply do is to have the pups within the litter tested, and then cull the ones that carry the gene, and never breed to the ones that have the gene, ever. Getting rid of the whole litter would be like throwing out the baby with the dirty bath water. Many “littermates” carry many different genes, traits, characteristics etc.., they are not all “identical”. This is exactly why some are straight legged and some are crooked. You can count on all of the crooked legged ones having the gene, that’s a given, but some of the straight legged ones may also carry it, that is why a test would be necessary to find out for sure.

But I will have to say that this disease; {causes the cartilage cushioning the joints to become deformed and the bones attached to that cartilage to grow abnormally} does not just affect the legs. For years, and it started all the way back in the 50’s, some of your top dogs from “famous lines” were coming out with “stub tails”. In reality, as they developed as pups, their tails looked liked porky pig’s tail. They were crooked, knotted, and twisted like a corkscrew, so many of them docked their dog’s tails.

Chondrocytes is a cartilage cell, “or the cell that produces cartilage”. When there is a deficiency of this or an abnormity of this cell it affects many different areas, such as the ears, which was another reason for “short ears” back in the day. So it reality the shorter ears, docked tails {due to extreme hunt, they hunted the ends off, so they docked them}, shorter “benched legs” were not at all because of strategic breeding. They were actually dogs that should have been “culled” for physical reasons, but they could still pound a rabbit so they continued to breed them. When it came down to it, they simply chose to ignore “physical negatives” because of what the dog could accomplish in the field. Some just went too far, having no balance.

But then again, these priorities are what separate the world of Beagle Show Dogs and Beagle Hunting Dogs. The definition or answer to the quote “Bettering the Breed”, is in the eyes of the beholder. The question has and always will be, what are we willing to “overlook” in order to achieve our final result or goal. For some the highest priority is in the field, for others it is on the bench and for some, it is somewhere in-between, so I don’t really know if there is a right or wrong answer to any of this, other than wouldn’t be nice to have the whole ball of wax wrapped up in one dog and wouldn’t be nice to produce the perfect litter every litter. But don’t get me wrong, we are not supposed to “settle” and we have to make an effort to “better the breed” the best we can.
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Tim H
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Tim H »

Shotgun John wrote:If culling only the ones with visible defect fixes the problem, Then I am good to go right. If I hadn't post a picture of Josh, you would never known that them dogs was sired by a crooked leg dog.
Until we can look at a dog and see the genes we have to use better methods and many people do. There are test to find the genes and then you know which ones carry the defect and which ones don't, that is how you cull.
Shotgun John wrote: I asked someone who did study animal genetics and the opinion I got was that what most breeders are doing is covering up what they genetically have in their kennels.
This may be true for some and in that case you could do your culling by sight. Down the road someone is gonna pay the consequences of that choice. On the other hand, there are also those who breed by sight because they don't know any better or just don't have the time to learn more. I have someone who is an expert on genetics help me understand as much as I can and when it's over my head (most of the time) I can default to their judgment and knowledge.
Shotgun John wrote: I hope I haven't offended no one, I just thought this was a topic worth discussing.
Didn't offend me and I always learn something when legitimate questions about breeding come up.
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mybeagles
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by mybeagles »

Laneline,

Have you ever had a beagle genetically tested to see if it was a carrier of bad recessive traits. Ive never heard of anyone doing this and never thought it financially feasible. If you have had it done, what type of cost are you looking at.

I see in your post and a few others, that the only sure way to ensure recessive faults dont get passed is to do genetic testing. Given I dont think thats a viable option for most, wouldnt the next best option be to not breed to crooked legged dogs or dogs with obviously visible faults? Crooked leggs is just an example, not an attack on Shotgun John. IMO no hunt would be worse than crooked leggs.

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Shotgun John »

mybeagles wrote:
IMO no hunt would be worse than crooked leggs.

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Crooked teeth,no hunt, no nose, no brains, short ears and over powering desire are worse than crooked legs. imo

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by ray s »

Shotgun John wrote
"I hope I haven't offended no one, I just thought this was a topic worth discussing. I am learning and this is something that I feel is swept under the rug a lot of times."

I think it is a very worthy post. We are getting an education.If anyone is offended, about any thing I have read so far in this post, it is without merit.
Good Post!

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Laneline »

mybeagles wrote:Laneline,

Have you ever had a beagle genetically tested to see if it was a carrier of bad recessive traits. Ive never heard of anyone doing this and never thought it financially feasible. If you have had it done, what type of cost are you looking at.

I see in your post and a few others, that the only sure way to ensure recessive faults dont get passed is to do genetic testing. Given I dont think thats a viable option for most, wouldnt the next best option be to not breed to crooked legged dogs or dogs with obviously visible faults? Crooked leggs is just an example, not an attack on Shotgun John. IMO no hunt would be worse than crooked leggs.

Mybeagles
Yes I have, but by total accident and for other reasons. I went to a local College when they announced they were having a few classes on “Canine Genetics”, so I attended. They were going over and defining “genetic markers” and what you can find out about your dog through them. I had a question about a female that we own. Every litter she ever had, she always had a “chocolate/red” pup. After several litters to different males, it didn’t matter if she was bred to a tri-color, black & tan, bluetick, lemon & white, etc… she always had all tri-colors and that one chocolate/red pup. In an 8 generation pedigree, she only has one dog of that color and that was in her 7th generation. {including the males she was bred to}. I wanted to know why and how she was doing this. That’s when they explained the pinpointing of genetic sequencing and markers. It could get a little expensive, but through this a person could use this to pinpoint certain genetic traits, characteristics and looks from different pups and actually manipulate or narrow down the gene pool to which dogs in your pedigree that you want to “copy” or bring out in your line the most. People have already been doing this for years in horse racing, greyhound racing and in raising cattle and sheep.

Actually many of us have had access to detect chondrodystrophy and simply didn’t know it. It is actually found in a basic DNA test. Through the DNA markers it can be pinpointed by the DNA sequencing of the DNA markers. The fact of whether or not your dog has it can be known from a DNA test, what they are still working on is what causes it and how to cure it. You can read a little about it here: http://www.aladarbeagles.com/beaglegeneticssummary.pdf

The studies about Beagle genetics and the “priority level” concerning the “physical” and “appearance” of the Beagle has been mainly pushed hard by the “Beagle Show World”, and the National Beagle Club. http://www.aladarbeagles.com/dwarf.html

For most Hunters and Field trailers this has not been a great concern simply because the main emphasis is what the dog can do in the field and nothing else, so not much thought, study or keeping up with the studies of others has really been necessary or a priority. Here is another link: http://showbeaglequarterlymagazine.com/ ... le.chd.pdf

The National Beagle Club actually has a “Genetics Committee”. You can check out this link and they give info concerning many things they are working on and health concerns of beagles in general. They have a new sight so they are still updating the links: http://clubs.akc.org/NBC/health_genetics.html

But I do agree, if DNA or genetic testing is not an option for some, then we would have to go by obvious visible and known traits and cull vigorously without bias and breed the best to the best. Before these tests existed this was the way, and it worked for many, and still does for many.
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." - Mark Twain

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by mybeagles »

Laneline,

Thanks for that info and those articles.

Could you be more specific about the costs and if someone wanted to have it done, where to go?

You left us hanging on why the dog that always had one brown pup. With my understanding of genetics, I would think sometimes she would have two or three and sometimes none.

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Shotgun John »

I had to do it again. I did an outcross to a crooked leg Indian hills dog.

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mybeagles
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by mybeagles »

John don't you think selection has more to do with it than the fact you outcrossed?
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Aubrey Holcombe »

I bet I have breed as many litters of Beagle pups, as anyone, on this web sight ?

I enjoyed Everything, that all had to say, and I been talking with Those Tw :dance: o John's a long time, they Top shelf, as well as their Gun Dogs !

I did get an Education with Mr. Landline, Mighty good Stuff !

Need I say more, check back and read what Mr.Salzer Mtn. said I think he has the Answere..

Yours In sports.
D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>> :dance:
ARHA Hall Of Fame, own "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels", Royston, Georgia

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