Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

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warddog
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by warddog »

I find all this breeding stuff really fascinating and especially when many propose to better the breed(s). I often wonder how MAN can do that when he doesn't have the slightest idea of all the genes are being carried by what dog. Minus a DNA profile of every dog bred in a line, MAN's captivity is an intervention causing a crap shoot and in fact may even cause mutations in the line. Natural selection and survival of the fittest in nature allow only those worthy of producing to do so for generations as they are the only ones that survive to produce AGAIN. When we breed dogs we do so for traits that strike our personal fancy which may not be the best for the breed. I believe this is proven by the Irish Setter that used to be a pretty good bird dog back in the day when they were left to do in nature what they were supposed to do rather than parade around like a prima donna. I have read many say that a dogs pedigree doesn't mean much after about three generations but I always figure that when I'm least expecting it, EXPECT it as those recessives may match up at any time as I have no idea of each dogs genetic profile other than what I can see which is most generally the dominate traits. It is my understanding that if both parents carry a gene than the chances of passing it on is about 75% as 50% will be hidden trait carriers, 25% will visibly show the trait and 25% will be free of the trait completely. In a litter that could be quite a few that we had no idea of because we didn't have the complete DNA makeup of both parents. I do NOT see how man can outdo mother nature but he has been trying for many, many years and the results are that we are NOT all hunting the best and in fact there are many, many more not so good ones and few good ones!

BMBeagles
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by BMBeagles »

warddog wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:16 am
I find all this breeding stuff really fascinating and especially when many propose to better the breed(s). I often wonder how MAN can do that when he doesn't have the slightest idea of all the genes are being carried by what dog. Minus a DNA profile of every dog bred in a line, MAN's captivity is an intervention causing a crap shoot and in fact may even cause mutations in the line. Natural selection and survival of the fittest in nature allow only those worthy of producing to do so for generations as they are the only ones that survive to produce AGAIN. When we breed dogs we do so for traits that strike our personal fancy which may not be the best for the breed. I believe this is proven by the Irish Setter that used to be a pretty good bird dog back in the day when they were left to do in nature what they were supposed to do rather than parade around like a prima donna. I have read many say that a dogs pedigree doesn't mean much after about three generations but I always figure that when I'm least expecting it, EXPECT it as those recessives may match up at any time as I have no idea of each dogs genetic profile other than what I can see which is most generally the dominate traits. It is my understanding that if both parents carry a gene than the chances of passing it on is about 75% as 50% will be hidden trait carriers, 25% will visibly show the trait and 25% will be free of the trait completely. In a litter that could be quite a few that we had no idea of because we didn't have the complete DNA makeup of both parents. I do NOT see how man can outdo mother nature but he has been trying for many, many years and the results are that we are NOT all hunting the best and in fact there are many, many more not so good ones and few good ones!
Good post wardog!

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S.R.Patch
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by S.R.Patch »

For hot summer days reading, there are some books that track the development of the different canine breeds. Yes, MAN, crafted and standardized the many breeds of Canine through blending, selection and purpose.
However hard it may seem to believe, there are those with knowledge, fortitude and the means to test, select and breed the volume of animal, to make improvement standardized to the breed description.
Throwbacks will sometimes pop-up, but again, the whole success of the game is all about the major percentage as far as possible, for there is no perfection. imho

warddog
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by warddog »

MAN crafted the many canine breeds and in doing so man did it with HIS personal opinion of what was good, better, average and the best. In nature there is but one judge of that and it is called survival of the fittest and the style of getting fed is secondary to the fact that without being able to the creature itself perishes. Man's intervention has crafted many breeds as well as weakened many others to suit his particular fancy. The same holds true with many, many other things where man gets his nose into mother natures business and several come to mind where man has introduces something to rid of help something else only to then have started an invasive insect, plant or animal. I have read and in fact witnessed many things man has done in the meat and poultry business with food animals in an attempt to raise more, bigger, quicker and cheaper only to see what they swore by at one time be replaced by something new only to return to the old tried and proven methods. Used to be a time when livestock and MAN was treated with Sulfer drugs and now that practice is nearly obsolete because man caused the use of it to make the things it was used to cure immune to it. I see these bushes along the side of the road that man planted for wind breaks, I call them Japanese or Russian olive which are now considered an invasive species that has taken over the place where we used to hint to the point it has choked out nearly all the under growth. then we see the Japanese beetles that devour my wife's rose bushes as well as the grasshoppers. ALL interventions by man for man because mother nature left them ALL out in specific areas in nature. There are many books to read about genetics, breeding and training of hunting dogs BUT from my experience from a kid to now is that the more man has intervened the less I see of ole Jack down the road in which ALL the hunters in the area were hunting dogs out of. What was he out of and what did the ole boy down the road do to make him that way NOTHING he was what mother nature put on this earth, allowed to run free and do what mother nature allowed. Agreed that man can hone specific traits but he also hones the bad ones as well and may never even know it until the roulette wheel matches up on some of them hidden traits and mother nature sings the song of "it's not nice to try to fool mother nature," BUT we still shall try under the guise of bettering.

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S.R.Patch
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by S.R.Patch »

BUT, if we digress, will hounds not regress to what has been natural to them and not to being the companion that they were developed to be, and if that occur, will the silent stalking animal not reemerge to feed itself once again in packs not conducive to include or benefit man?
Yea, I say... interference of man is necessary and a must, for I and many concur... a man and his hounds become bonded, such that even a good woman becomes jealous... :dance:

warddog
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by warddog »

AYE, so we are back to what man wants rather than what mother nature wants AND the reason for this thread being "crooked legs, did I do that?" Digressing back would then better the animal for it's existence here on earth BUT not to each individual man's liking. I remember many, many years ago that the crooked leg beagles were called BENCH LEGGED beagles and we had some as a kid. YES, they were registered and from the old walkie talkie style rabbit runners. Seen many, many silent to semi silent coon as well as squirrel dogs put much meat on the table and the crossing of them did not produce strictly silent trailers neither were they more proficient at their trade than open trailers. We used to sit our in our deer blinds here on my property and consistently see a small pack of wild dogs running deer. What was interesting to note is that those that seemed to have hound in them were tonging and the others were merely chasing without tongue. I had set out one of those deer decoys one year about half way between my cousins stand and mine in a very small field between us. I heard the wild pack running towards me and watched as they entered the opening after the very small doe they were chasing and then BOOM the leader of the pack jumped right on that deer decoy! After the pack found out it wasn't the warm blooded quarry off they went in pursuit minus a couple members of their pack left behind as both my cousin and I witnessed the call of the wild. I know one thing for sure and that was those beagle looking dogs in that pack could run a deer right and were announcing to the world that they were doing so. I've lived here on this property for nearly 30 years and that pack is long gone but there was a time when the area around me was not so built up and evidently the folks from town thought it a good place to dump their unwanted dogs to fend for themselves. Man's tools are just that, tools and man can bend them, shape them to suit his individual liking but regardless of man's tweaking to his expectations the fact remains that the tool originated from a specific root cause or use, getting the job done regardless of the individual's likes and dislikes. The foundation was built to serve that purpose and if man plays with the building blocks of the foundation without knowing exactly what they are then let the roulette wheel spin. Round and round she goes with ANY and ALL past building blocks on the wheel weather known or not and BOOM out of the cleat blue sky comes crooked legs, silent trackers, 16 inch beagles, long hair, over bites, dew claws, aggressiveness etc ALL from the same line that had been previously crossed before. I'm NOT even suggesting that line breeding is not good for man but only that when you least expect it, EXPECT it as man will not take mother nature out of the picture unless he is CLONING them out of a test tube and therefore we are ALL not hunting the best and neither are we all hunting the same line. We like what we like and one man's trash is another man's treasure until one man can produce everyman's treasure which man has NOT been able to do for hundreds and hundreds of years until he was able to clone an EXACT replica of the original tool from it's roots.

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Rabbithoundjb »

I do like your posts Warddog

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by likeemfast »

Rabbithoundjb wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:28 am
I do like your posts Warddog
I like the fact he's a man of few words. Short and to the point.
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warddog
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by warddog »

Evidently you do like it very much. You seem to read ALL my posts. So glad you like them but if not and merely being sarcastic skip over them as you do evidently know my handle on here as well.

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by Aubrey Holcombe »

Just for the Record, that likenfast fellow is a Top Shelf, Young man in my book, just like, You ! He has done a lots of good things for this Ol Red Neck !!

Good to see you still on the Web Sight, Bruce and how is the Ol Man ?

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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by likeemfast »

warddog wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:49 am
So glad you like them but if not and merely being sarcastic skip over them as you do evidently know my handle on here as well.
Me sarcastic? :roll:
Aubrey Holcombe wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:47 am

Good to see you still on the Web Sight, Bruce and how is the Ol Man ?

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
Mr Holcombe
Yup, I'm still around, busy with the kids and work, glad to see your still here too. Dad is doing well for a old coal cracker.
Take care of yourself. I will give you a call soon.
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Re: Crooked legs. Did I breed it into my dogs?

Post by OKIEDOG »

Not necessarily. Sometimes crooked legs happen because of genetics. But, there's other causes too, such as: mineral deficiencies that cause the bones/cartiledge not to form properly at birth. It can also be caused by the flooring the dog walked on as a pup - just like splayed toes.

I had a field champion who was so crooked in the front end, you couldn't tell if he was turning left or right. He NEVER threw a crooked leg pup. And, I've been buying some pups from a friend who has been breeding two straight-legged dogs together, but, all the black/tans are crooked, but the red dogs are straight as arrows. But, neither the black/tans or the red dogs throw crooked legged pups (so far).

If you get crooked legs consistently, it's a genetic issue and you should probably address the issue. If you don't, then it may just be something that happened as a youngster with the parents.

Mike Franklin
OKIE DOG SUPPLY
www.OKIEDOGSUPPLY.com
918.633.3519

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