Tryin your advice what do you think of this plan(mya Trials)

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

I made a list of the faults I don't want Mya to pick up and of the things I want her to work on before getting thrown into the rigors of a full time trial dog...

1. One day a week (at least) of solo time to work on drive and figuring out checks- line and jump without relying on other dogs although I think she is good at this already more experience can't hurt.

2. Trash breaking plan- She has never ran off game before but I am almost 100percent positive she will if the pack leaves off on something. So I am gonna run her into deer infested woods with my dog who will run deer at any opportunity and then if she follows, give her a shocking and beating.... then get her on a rabbit.... I've never broke a dog off deer though it seems they run them no matter how much I shock them but the mom and dad never ran deer so maybe mya won't either.

3. Back tracking and this is the BIGGIE--- I don't know how to stop a dog from this especially if she is with other dogs. (not a problem yet by any means) How in the world can a dog tell if its following the right way a rabbit went when it comes across a hot path it wasn't already following like happened on sunday? and what do I do if she does back track- she is SUPER SUPER sensitive to the shock collar and she will not hunt if she gets even nicked very much I don't think... not gonna try and find out either.

4. Limit myself to one trial every other week or once a month for now until she finishes and then stop all together till she is two from letting her run in the champion pack... I can't believe I never trialed before! its so much fun meeting people and seeing the dogs work- I am HOOKED even if mya never wins a caste again I think I'd still go just to run her with other dogs.

5. Work on getting her bench championship while she is still a pup because she can gain points easier since not a lot of people run the 6-12 month old dogs in show. everyone thinks she will have 0000 problems winning bench champion if I can learn how to stand her right.

opinions????????????????????????????

[Bobby Vest]

If you want to have a complete dog forget trialing all together for another year. Make her a complete gun dog before you try to make her a trial dog. You will probably have to learn to break her from a lot more bad habits than you listed if you keep trialing her. Why don't you just buy you a completely finished dog if you have the trialing bug so bad. It's your dog and it seems you are determined to ruin her before she has a chance to make a complete dog. At 8 mo. old she isn't close to being mature mentally or physically. Why don't you go and try to play a game of basketball against one of the top college teams in the country and see how you do. That is about what you are doing to her.

[BigWoods]

I agree with Bobby. Buy a running dog to compete with if thats your hang up right now. Your trying to force the pup into things before shes ready. She may not ever backtrack, run off game or anything else but your trying to set her up to do it. Let her develope on her own. Sounds like she has a lot of potential and you'll be risking it all trying to push her too fast.

[Bobby Vest]

Mo. Beagler 5000 I guess since I am trying to give you some advice I should back it up with a reason why. I have seen every trial format there is out there. I have not yet seen a format that didn't have backtrackers, deer runners, cutters, slashers, mouthy, crazy dogs being ran in them. My question is why would you want to run a pup in with that until it is physically and mentally mature? I know a lot of people will come on here and tell you their format doesn't have any dogs like that in it. My answer to them is they are full of crap. There are a lot of great dogs being trialed but there are a lot of dogs being trialed that are terrible also. I have seen a lot of 15 to 16 mo. old dogs messed up because they were ran with dogs that were too much for them at the time. I am only trying to give you what I think is good advice you can take it or leave it. I wish you good luck with your pup.

[Bunnyblaster]

So I am gonna run her into deer infested woods with my dog who will run deer at any opportunity and then if she follows, give her a shocking and beating.... then get her on a rabbit....

The only thing I would do different is I wouldn't beat her. Let her think the deer kicked her @$$ with the juice. If you yell at her, call her in or beat her when she gets there then she can associate you with the shock and not the deer. I got this advice from a few older, more experienced fellas and it has worked for me so far. Also, I do not physically scold any dog when it comes to me for whatever reason. I am supposed to be the "safe zone" so if they are ever hurt, scared or unsure they come and find me........not run away.

[Norshore]

Mo. Beagler 5000 I guess since I am trying to give you some advice I should back it up with a reason why. I have seen every trial format there is out there. I have not yet seen a format that didn't have backtrackers, deer runners, cutters, slashers, mouthy, crazy dogs being ran in them. My question is why would you want to run a pup in with that until it is physically and mentally mature? I know a lot of people will come on here and tell you their format doesn't have any dogs like that in it. My answer to them is they are full of crap. There are a lot of great dogs being trialed but there are a lot of dogs being trialed that are terrible also. I have seen a lot of 15 to 16 mo. old dogs messed up because they were ran with dogs that were too much for them at the time. I am only trying to give you what I think is good advice you can take it or leave it. I wish you good luck with your pup.

Good advise, the pup has some things you know need to be worked on. Why not fix/work on them and let it mature a bit first.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

Thanks for the reply's...I LOVE THESE BOARDS FOR OPEN DIALOGUE...

The guys at the trial told me the key to making her a true trial dog was to make her run with dogs whom she can easily make follow her and to not run her with dogs who pull her and make her chase them instead of the rabbit...basically the feeling I got was to make her feel like a champ so when she runs with them, she holds her own and isn't timid to take the lead...and solo time to run her own rabbit. Is there truth to this?? I asked all the people in castes i drew what I should be doing and this is what the majority said..

I haven't bought a finished dog because I can't afford one.....(that's trial able already and is a finished gun dog and I like pups for some reason)

Also aren't derby trials made for puppies to run in? what makes that better than a full competition....?? just asking not trying to be confrontational cause i've never done this before... wouldn't a pup pick up more bad traits at a place running all puppies or am I not understanding a derby trial?

I really don't wanna ruin this dog but I can't run very much cause I teach and coach, I don't really know what I am doing, I just like watching the dog run and shooting rabbits over her....she is really really smart for a beagle and so far she runs circles around my dogs cause she is so fast and picks up checks like there is no tomorrow. I hope she slows down about two notches or more because compared to the medium speed i've been running she blows by after the first check that its like watching two races...

So how do I complete her without trying her or running her with dogs with bad habbits? solo time, is that all?

[deerhost]

You have said it yourself. The way to finish her and let her live up to her genetic potential is to take her hunting solo and shoot rabbits over her. Every so often throw her in with a clean mediumspeed dog and let them run together. Please don't try to break her off deer when she hasn't even taken off on one yet. All you need to do is give her ground time solo and with another clean smooth running hound or two every so often. I hunt mostly but like attending trials myself but I normaly don't put a pup in a trial untel about 18 months old. Running her with faster rougher dogs at a youg age is a sure way to ruin her. At derby trials she will be runnig with pups with her own experiance level. Bring her to a few derbys to fill your nitch to trial for now. Thats just my opinion......DH

[Bunnyblaster]

Deerhost, if she's running well and has been for a while then why wouldn't you deer check her?? She's only 8 months old and I'm not saying it couldn't wait for another month or two but if the rabbits are sparse and the deer aren't then if she's gonna do it then she's gonna do it. Personally I would rather it be under controlled conditions where I know for sure what she's doing then not be sure and have her end up getting away with it.

JMO but what do you think??

[deerhost]

Put an E-collar on her and hunt rabbits with her. If she ever takes off on a deer then you hit her with the e-collar. It doesn't make any sense to me to intentionally walk a pup into deer to see if she is going to run it. Number 2, how can you say it's ever a controlled deer check? It is never controlled unless it is in a pen and even then I wouldn't do it. I keep my pups as far away as I can from deer as long as possible. I just keep them on rabbit scent and I've found that the longer you keep them away from deer as a pup the less likley they will be to become deer runners. Like I said, I would just have an e-collar on the pup when I run it and if she tries to run deer I'll let her have it. But to walk them into deer is just something I wouldn't do. Also when a dog takes off on deer you know it......Thats my opinion. Take it or leave it....Good luck with the PUP>>>>DH

[Bunnyblaster]

Deerhost, I wasn't trying to make you get defensive..........I just look at it different and wondered what you're thoughts were about how I approach it. Controlled is probably the wrong word to use, maybe I should have just said under circumstances that I choose. Once my pups are 8 months old and are started and running WELL on rabbits and have a whole lot more than just a track or two under their belt I have no problem with someone like MO doing this. And I don't just walk them into a deer hunters paradise out in an oak stand or something. It's generally in a field where I just saw the deer so I know exactly when and where that pup is gonna open if it'll do it.

See I've been in MO's position where I wasn't experienced enough to call foul because I was afraid of jumping the gun and shocking the dog for the wrong thing........in other words I couldn't tell right away if it was a deer or not. It's easy to say you can tell after you've had it happen to you a few times and in a few different situations. But out behind my house in the spring the rabbits will run a big old loop back to the oaks and back around to me.....just like a deer will except once the deer hits the oaks which are quite a ways off they keep right on going. I had an sd 1800 and once they got that far out I couldn't touch em. So they got away with a deer chase and I ended up chasing dogs.

Now all that being said I just look at it like protecting them too long isn't good either. I used to try to keep them away from deer and eventually they'd pop one. Mite be on scent, a sight chase or because someone else's dog started it but it would eventually happen and usually on those days when a rabbit was hard to come by........and when you least expected it too I might add. I would rather mine get a lesson before they even get the chance to get sucked in by another dog or the sight of a fleeing deer..........jmo. Obviously your way is working for you but so far mine has worked for me with the 12-15 pups I've done it with so far and I haven't seen any ill effects on any of them yet.

[2500 HD]

Heck I expect everyone of my pups to run a deer. If they don't i always wonder when they will. When mine are running good I set them up on deer and then get them back on a rabbit. I would rather brake them before 1 yr old too. Seems to sink in better!!!!!!!!

[RunninHard]

So I am gonna run her into deer infested woods with my dog who will run deer at any opportunity and then if she follows, give her a shocking and beating.... then get her on a rabbit....

The only thing I would do different is I wouldn't beat her. Let her think the deer kicked her @$$ with the juice. If you yell at her, call her in or beat her when she gets there then she can associate you with the shock and not the deer. I got this advice from a few older, more experienced fellas and it has worked for me so far. Also, I do not physically scold any dog when it comes to me for whatever reason. I am supposed to be the "safe zone" so if they are ever hurt, scared or unsure they come and find me........not run away.

Great post Bunnyblaster

[SilverZuk]

You are putting way too much thought into this.
I would encourage you to run the dog with some that will chase off game, and make sure she is broke.

Other than that, you are planning like you are training an olympic athlete.
Just run your dog, enjoy it, take it to some different formats of trial to see which you like, and which your dog is best suited.

There are different style dogs and different formats for each basic style. Some formats want a line dog that keeps the track between its front legs, others will reward the jump dog more than anything (ARHA little pack).

Having a "world beater" trial dog is a 1 in a million. First you have to find that dog that has the world beater potential. Then you run them hard to develop that ability.
If you take an average dog, run it hard. You are going to have an average dog that is in very good shape.

In actuality, we don't train these dogs. We teach them a few basic commands, and then continue to expose them to rabbits so they learn themselves. Besides trash breaking and teaching them to come when they are called - all we really are is a driver to give them a ride to the hunting spot.

[SilverZuk]

I also agree with Bunny Blaster.
I don't beat dogs. If they are running trash, I burn them up with the collar until they are screaming, flopping, and headed my way. When they get there, I pet them and ask "What's wrong? Did that deer get you?"

Enforcing a command only works at the instant the dog is doing something wrong.
If you can't catch it in the act, don't bother trying to correct it after the fact.
If you call the dog in, and then beat it.
The dog will quickly learn not to come in when you call it with that tone of voice. It knows that tone of voice means it is going to get beat. Trust me, they know by your voice when you are mad - even when you try to hide it.

The only thing I use to whip dogs is my hat or a switch. I've never seen where beating a dog did it better than a good scolding. It may make the owner feel better, but it generally just makes shy dogs.
That is the joy of shock collars, is that I can do the correction immediately without physical harm to the dog.