There is no crying in 'beagling'.
About every other post on this board the past few days has been whining about how other people don't do things the way we like them. Some sell their dogs too high. Some linebreed, some cross-breed. Some people make money off dogs, some give them away. Field trialing is bad.....
Why worry about everyone else, or more to the point, why get on here and badmouth everybody who is not you? Not every Field Champion is a great dog, but there are GREAT Field Champions out there. Some produce great dogs, some don't. If Field Trialing has ruined the beagle, tell me how besides the fact that some formats aren't to your liking. Dogs are bred for many different running style and one of those styles problably fit your bill. Nose? Just because a dog doesn't blow holes in the ground on a 3 hour old track doesn't mean that the dog doesn't have a nose, they may just be using their mouth correctly. Field trialers have promoted beagling and brought a lot of people to, or back to beagling. It's brought many beaglers together to form friendships. I believe it's brought on more culling than some would have done before they trialed.
Personally, I'd like to hear more positive stuff about beagling on here than a few people whining and crying because they feel their dogs, style, and theories on beagling are far superior to people they don't know and have never met.
jmo
The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
Almost sounds like your crying that the beagle board discussion isnt to your liking........Personally, I'd like to hear more positive stuff about beagling on here than a few people whining and crying
Seems to me like your worrying about it and badmouthing some of us that are not you........Why worry about everyone else, or more to the point, why get on here and badmouth everybody who is not you?
Everything in beagling is not perfect and never will be. There will always be differences of opinion. Beagle boards allow individuals to bring up their percieved problems and get other opinions. Sometimes things change, sometimes the topic just dies till someone brings it up again. Some might consider the discussion and make some changes.....I have in the past and likely will in the future. Please tell me what your thoughts brought to the table other than the fact that you see things through rose colored lenses?
Mybeagles
Last edited by mybeagles on Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rob’s Ranger Rabbit Hunter (Lefty)
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
You got me there mybeagles!
Let the whining continue, I'll shutup.
Let the whining continue, I'll shutup.
M and K's Beagles
http://huntingbeagle.gotop100.com/out.php?id=533
http://huntingbeagle.gotop100.com/out.php?id=533
-
bucks better beagles
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
Welcome to the 21st. century Chris. I too remember the days when we would run a rabbit out of a hole with a ferret, stick, smoke or anything else just to get to kill it. Personally, I am glad this is generally illegal now.
I also remember party line phones, typewriters, no electricity, toilet paper made out of Sears & Roebuck catalogs, feeding dogs left over (if there were any) scraps, weeding onions, roofs with holes in them etc., etc.,. Most of these memories are fond ones but they are memories.
I think the dogs of today are much better Than the meat hunters of yesterday (say 50 years ago). I owe that to tri-tronics, better and more consistent breeding and, to a large part, field trialers. Yes, I said it, FIELD TRIALERS. Give them credit, they spend the time to improve their breed and they spend the money to improve their breed. They put their money where their mouth is. What do the rest of us do? Sit around and tell each other how great our non-field trialing dogs are. All of us have the option to go and compete if not in the trials than with person with a trial dog. Most of them I know are more than willing to show their stuff and are proud of it. If I see a Trails, Junie, Reggie, Shorty etc. out there that suits my fancy, I would like to try it.
The key word in "interest". The trialers keep the interest going. Where would we be without them? Come on, who wants to talk about ol' Juniour laying up under the porch. I have a million old time stories but I doubt if the boys on this board would like to hear them.
As for the AKC board, you don't have to deal with them either. You don't have to register or even keep a registered dog. Why would you want to. You don't even have to read threads that you disagree with.
What you do have to do is deal with reality. The reality is that this is the way it is. Rightly or wrongly, we will never go back. You can't go back to the old days. There are good and bad in every sport including baseball. Babe Ruth was a drunk, Mickey Mantle was a drunk and a philanderer, Satch Mo was black and wasn't even allowed to play in baseball until he was in his 40's. Things change.
My point, there are good and bad dogs in all venues of the sport. My friend Augerhead has two of the best and won't settle for anything less. Myself, I keep a lot lesser dog and am generally satisfied. I run fox as well as rabbit with them and are there for the chase only. I try not to judge or blame but, encourage the trialers to keep posting and doing what they do.
JMO
I also remember party line phones, typewriters, no electricity, toilet paper made out of Sears & Roebuck catalogs, feeding dogs left over (if there were any) scraps, weeding onions, roofs with holes in them etc., etc.,. Most of these memories are fond ones but they are memories.
I think the dogs of today are much better Than the meat hunters of yesterday (say 50 years ago). I owe that to tri-tronics, better and more consistent breeding and, to a large part, field trialers. Yes, I said it, FIELD TRIALERS. Give them credit, they spend the time to improve their breed and they spend the money to improve their breed. They put their money where their mouth is. What do the rest of us do? Sit around and tell each other how great our non-field trialing dogs are. All of us have the option to go and compete if not in the trials than with person with a trial dog. Most of them I know are more than willing to show their stuff and are proud of it. If I see a Trails, Junie, Reggie, Shorty etc. out there that suits my fancy, I would like to try it.
The key word in "interest". The trialers keep the interest going. Where would we be without them? Come on, who wants to talk about ol' Juniour laying up under the porch. I have a million old time stories but I doubt if the boys on this board would like to hear them.
As for the AKC board, you don't have to deal with them either. You don't have to register or even keep a registered dog. Why would you want to. You don't even have to read threads that you disagree with.
What you do have to do is deal with reality. The reality is that this is the way it is. Rightly or wrongly, we will never go back. You can't go back to the old days. There are good and bad in every sport including baseball. Babe Ruth was a drunk, Mickey Mantle was a drunk and a philanderer, Satch Mo was black and wasn't even allowed to play in baseball until he was in his 40's. Things change.
My point, there are good and bad dogs in all venues of the sport. My friend Augerhead has two of the best and won't settle for anything less. Myself, I keep a lot lesser dog and am generally satisfied. I run fox as well as rabbit with them and are there for the chase only. I try not to judge or blame but, encourage the trialers to keep posting and doing what they do.
JMO
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
AMEN Dr Chris,
Far as I`m concerned field trials and the round table is a lot of B_________S_________________ get in the field and watch the hounds run,see whats goin on. Don`t set at the road and watch to see which one crosses first,might change your mind on some of these first crossers.
Far as I`m concerned field trials and the round table is a lot of B_________S_________________ get in the field and watch the hounds run,see whats goin on. Don`t set at the road and watch to see which one crosses first,might change your mind on some of these first crossers.
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
My thoughts are simply take your "rabbit dogs" and do with them what YOU like. I'm a rabbit hunter. I like running dogs, all year long. Every once in a while, escpecially after rabbit season is over, I like to got to a few field trials and get to visit with some wonderful people and really good buddies. I've got my theories on what a hound should be, tho I realize mine is not the only way. I don't see how field trialling has ruined the beagle breed. I've seen dogs I'd feed at a trial, and also in a buddy's back yard whose never been to a trial. I TRY not to criticize everybody else's dogs, dog style, or preference in what they breed to. I don't see that as looking through rose colored glasses. I figure I'm minding my own without trying to harm others.Please tell me what your thoughts brought to the table other than the fact that you see things through rose colored lenses?
Last edited by hookset on Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
M and K's Beagles
http://huntingbeagle.gotop100.com/out.php?id=533
http://huntingbeagle.gotop100.com/out.php?id=533
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
Dr. Chris
Thank You!! Well said. I too enjoy my dogs being able to run a rabbit however. As long as the circle keeps on moving, or ends at the gun.
Two Big
Thank You!! Well said. I too enjoy my dogs being able to run a rabbit however. As long as the circle keeps on moving, or ends at the gun.
Two Big
-
peytonbeagles
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:33 pm
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
Its time to put a cap on this argument, and just keep the dog"s you have in the field. GOD BLESS THE BEAGLEMEN AND WOMEN
-
rabbitsmoker
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:12 pm
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
I would like to add IMO The dogs today there is not one ounce of difference than the dogs 20-30-40 years ago where the difference is the trainers and hunters In the yester years there were no shockin devices high quailty dog food when they got ready to go huntin they had to gather thier hounds up because they run loose when they went huntin they had no idea what time they'd be back These days if the red carpet isnt rolled out just stay home
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
I don’t believe anybody is doing any more then expressing their opinions, though some may be more passionate then others.
But a few things to keep in mind, when a person describes their dogs, training methods and progress in the field in great detail, and especially if they back it up with “videos” and “ask” for thoughts and opinions on the matters, you can expect feedback of being both positive and negative. A person ought not to whine about the feedback that they don’t like, when the feedback was requested to start with. I am not trying to be mean spirited, just honest.
And it was mentioned Babe Ruth and Mantle being drunks and philanderers, and also some played sick with broken bones and other serious ailments, but you know what? When they got on the field they took championships, set records and took care of business. Because it was all about a mindset. They were focused and had goals and a vision of what they had to do. Now, if a player has to take cough syrup for a cold and has a broken toe nail, he is headed for a 15 day DL.
And yes, back in the day the old beaglers didn’t have shock collars, high grade food, high tech equipment or even “dog boxes”. I still hear about it from my wife how years ago my beagles would tear out the back speakers of the car and I would come home with two beagle heads sticking out the holes where the speakers used to be. But in our primitive ways, we trained and hunted in the heat, cold and everything in-between and we demanded our dogs to do the same. Now? It’s too hot to run… It’s too cold to run… We just run the rabbits, there is not enough to kill… again, Jibber Jabber! Anybody that thinks running rabbits only is the same as gunning is sadly mistaken. For the dog to get the experience of tasting the blood, tasting the fur and chasing down the wounded rabbits and having a little hardy scrap with a pack mate to see who gets the rabbit, this makes all the instinctive difference in the world to a dog.
I know times have changed. It’s getting harder to find good hunting spots, laws are coming down on hunters, families are more busy and hunting dogs are becoming more like family members. But when it comes down to the correct methods and the dedication of the hard work of training and the acceptance of quality, some things should never change. Lazy training and the acceptance of poor quality by Hunters or Field Trialers, and even if they make champions, does not do anybody any good, especially the beagle breed. And I know of a lot of beaglers that do it right, and many are on this board and know me, and also know that I am honestly expressing my opinions.
Now I am not “trapped” in the past, but I do think some are settled and satisfied in the present. And if some of the “changes” of the past few decades are not good for the beagle or beagler, I see no reason why they cannot be addressed.
Two major things that should never change that have nothing to do with different speeds, sizes or styles of beagles:
#-1 A dog should instinctively have the grit, desire and guts to pursue game until it hurts like his azz is on fire, until you’re ready to go home.
#-2 A houndsman should instinctively have the grit, desire and guts to pursue the above #1 and settle for nothing less and have the honesty to recognize and cull all the rest.
Not this, maybe if I give them more vitamins or better food, or it needs one more cross of this stud, or I’ll wait until they are almost 2 so they can mature. And oh, I will go running 3 times a month but only in good conditions.
But many already know this but don’t listen to their “gut”. If your dog watches the other dogs run a rabbit? If it walks the paths with you? If it is a year old and comes back at a check and wants to play? Your gut is telling you the right thing to do…Cull! It’s when you consult with other people that are dealing with the same kind of culls that you are, that’s your mistake, because misery likes company and out come the 101 excuses and reasons to give those culls their 2nd, 3rd , 4th and 5th chances.
But these are just my opinions.
But a few things to keep in mind, when a person describes their dogs, training methods and progress in the field in great detail, and especially if they back it up with “videos” and “ask” for thoughts and opinions on the matters, you can expect feedback of being both positive and negative. A person ought not to whine about the feedback that they don’t like, when the feedback was requested to start with. I am not trying to be mean spirited, just honest.
And it was mentioned Babe Ruth and Mantle being drunks and philanderers, and also some played sick with broken bones and other serious ailments, but you know what? When they got on the field they took championships, set records and took care of business. Because it was all about a mindset. They were focused and had goals and a vision of what they had to do. Now, if a player has to take cough syrup for a cold and has a broken toe nail, he is headed for a 15 day DL.
And yes, back in the day the old beaglers didn’t have shock collars, high grade food, high tech equipment or even “dog boxes”. I still hear about it from my wife how years ago my beagles would tear out the back speakers of the car and I would come home with two beagle heads sticking out the holes where the speakers used to be. But in our primitive ways, we trained and hunted in the heat, cold and everything in-between and we demanded our dogs to do the same. Now? It’s too hot to run… It’s too cold to run… We just run the rabbits, there is not enough to kill… again, Jibber Jabber! Anybody that thinks running rabbits only is the same as gunning is sadly mistaken. For the dog to get the experience of tasting the blood, tasting the fur and chasing down the wounded rabbits and having a little hardy scrap with a pack mate to see who gets the rabbit, this makes all the instinctive difference in the world to a dog.
I know times have changed. It’s getting harder to find good hunting spots, laws are coming down on hunters, families are more busy and hunting dogs are becoming more like family members. But when it comes down to the correct methods and the dedication of the hard work of training and the acceptance of quality, some things should never change. Lazy training and the acceptance of poor quality by Hunters or Field Trialers, and even if they make champions, does not do anybody any good, especially the beagle breed. And I know of a lot of beaglers that do it right, and many are on this board and know me, and also know that I am honestly expressing my opinions.
Now I am not “trapped” in the past, but I do think some are settled and satisfied in the present. And if some of the “changes” of the past few decades are not good for the beagle or beagler, I see no reason why they cannot be addressed.
Two major things that should never change that have nothing to do with different speeds, sizes or styles of beagles:
#-1 A dog should instinctively have the grit, desire and guts to pursue game until it hurts like his azz is on fire, until you’re ready to go home.
#-2 A houndsman should instinctively have the grit, desire and guts to pursue the above #1 and settle for nothing less and have the honesty to recognize and cull all the rest.
Not this, maybe if I give them more vitamins or better food, or it needs one more cross of this stud, or I’ll wait until they are almost 2 so they can mature. And oh, I will go running 3 times a month but only in good conditions.
But many already know this but don’t listen to their “gut”. If your dog watches the other dogs run a rabbit? If it walks the paths with you? If it is a year old and comes back at a check and wants to play? Your gut is telling you the right thing to do…Cull! It’s when you consult with other people that are dealing with the same kind of culls that you are, that’s your mistake, because misery likes company and out come the 101 excuses and reasons to give those culls their 2nd, 3rd , 4th and 5th chances.
But these are just my opinions.
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
Bravo!!!!!!! dr. Chris, I'm guilty of those excuses also,but it is tough to find those tough hounds now days. Lucky I love the lookin for one.
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
Auger you hit it. Some LOVE looking for the ONE!! I am never content on what I have and strive for better. I have some decent dogs, but with time I want better by selectively culling, picking and chosing and hoping for my best dogs 5-10 years from now. I have a plan and I am going to work on it. We'll see.
-
bucks better beagles
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
Chris said: -1 A dog should instinctively have the grit, desire and guts to pursue game until it hurts like his azz is on fire, until you’re ready to go home.
#-2 A houndsman should instinctively have the grit, desire and guts to pursue the above #1 and settle for nothing less and have the honesty to recognize and cull all the rest.
On this, I most heartedly agree, but I ask you my friend, what percentage of dogs and men can meet your criteria? I call it the 75/98/2 principle. 75% or most beagles will make some kind of a dog that will please 75% of the people. 13% above this will make dogs which will please the more dedicated among us. 2% above that will make dogs that are real rabbit dogs and will meet your requirements and please people like yourself, augerhead, me and just about anyone else that has ever owned a good dog. I based these numbers on 50 years of statistics that I have kept on over 1500 dogs. I also maintained exhaustive specifics on weather conditions, time in the field, number of dogs hunted, and many other and varied relative hunting factors.
Your reference to "cull" met 35% of my reference base. Admittedly, my statistical base isn't large enough to meet scientific requirements but it is a place to start. If anyone has numbers they can crunch, I would like to add them to my research.
#-2 A houndsman should instinctively have the grit, desire and guts to pursue the above #1 and settle for nothing less and have the honesty to recognize and cull all the rest.
On this, I most heartedly agree, but I ask you my friend, what percentage of dogs and men can meet your criteria? I call it the 75/98/2 principle. 75% or most beagles will make some kind of a dog that will please 75% of the people. 13% above this will make dogs which will please the more dedicated among us. 2% above that will make dogs that are real rabbit dogs and will meet your requirements and please people like yourself, augerhead, me and just about anyone else that has ever owned a good dog. I based these numbers on 50 years of statistics that I have kept on over 1500 dogs. I also maintained exhaustive specifics on weather conditions, time in the field, number of dogs hunted, and many other and varied relative hunting factors.
Your reference to "cull" met 35% of my reference base. Admittedly, my statistical base isn't large enough to meet scientific requirements but it is a place to start. If anyone has numbers they can crunch, I would like to add them to my research.
Re: The Real Problem with the quality/philosophy of Beagles
I think the numbers would be more like 50/10/2. If 100% beagles make some kind of dog, then 50% of those will make acceptable hunting hounds,10% of those will prove above average to very good and 2% of those would prove exceptional.
Just my .02
Just my .02