The American Beagler Forum

I have been talking to a Rottwieller Breeder recently and she told me something that I've never heard before and don't know if there is any fact to what she saying. She stated that she doesn't vaccinate her puppies at all or adult dogs. The only preventative medication she gives is for all your typical worms. Now this lady deals in very high caliber dogs, her pups go for $2000.00-$3000.00 each and her adult dogs are tens of thousands of dollars. Has anyone ever heard this before? Here's a few things I found on the internet about shots that is interesting.

1. Always consider locale, lifestyle, risk and vaccine effectiveness. Bordetella (kennel cough) is for dogs in poorly-ventilated close quarters (like kennels), not for pets sometimes playing with others. Leptospirosis is a disease of wetlands and woodlands, and the vaccine may not protect against the actual disease in your area. Lyme is only for dogs in areas with Lyme disease. Furthermore, each of these vaccines has dangerous side effects and their efficacy is questionable. Don’t give them without proven need and benefit.
2. Eliminate vaccines on the “not recommended” list of the American Hospital Association’s Canine Vaccine Task Force as well as most veterinary organizations and schools. These include Giardia and Coronavirus (found in many combination shots).
3. Say no! to combination shots. Combo shots (called names like DHLPPC) assault your dog’s immune system with five or seven vaccines at once. Given for (false) economy and convenience rather than health or safety, combination shots are linked to autoimmune disease and other major health problems. Also, they invariably contain unnecessary and even dangerous vaccines.
4. Stop vaccinating against diseases for which your dog may already have immunity. Blood serological studies show that parvovirus vaccines given to dogs over 15-16 weeks of age generally give at least 7 years of immunity, as does the Rockborn distemper strain. (The Onderstepoort strain gives 5 years.) Ask your vet which vaccine your dog received.
5. Don’t allow your vet, kennel owner or groomer to intimidate you into giving unnecessary shots. Suggest titer testing for parvovirus or distemper — or go elsewhere. Require written proof from experts that your dog needs any shot. Your dog’s lifelong health is at stake.
6. Test immunity; don’t automatically re-vaccinate. Titer tests (pronounced TIGHT er) are blood tests measuring antibodies to disease. Renowned pet vaccination expert Dr. Ron Schultz believes that titer tests yielding strong titers for parvovirus and distemper means not vaccinating against these diseases for years and maybe life. (Note: Don’t expect everyone to accept test results in lieu of vaccination. This subject is complicated, and most people are programmed to think of vaccination as “the gold standard.” Also, the absence of strong titers does not necessarily mean that a dog needs a “booster.”) Read my article on titer testing here at Truth4Dogs.com for details.
7. Never vaccinate sick dogs. All vaccine labels state that they’re to be used in healthy animals. Unfortunately, vaccine labels don’t define “healthy” and most clients don’t know about this admonition. As a result, sick pets, immune-compromised pets, pets undergoing chemo and surgery, and even dying housebound pets are vaccinated. Any shots given to an unhealthy animal may well not provide immunity and will likely cause an adverse reaction, even death. Regarding the rabies vaccine: chronically ill or immune-compromised pets may be eligible for a rabies shot exemption for a specified period or even life. Click the preceding link for more information. And watch for our upcoming post on this subject.
8. Don’t vaccinate puppies too early. Vaccinating pups who still have maternal immunity is unnecessary and ineffective. Most vets suggest waiting until at least 8 weeks of age. Some experts suggest waiting until 3-4 months to vaccinate puppies, keeping pups away from public places and strange dogs until immunity is proven by strong titers.
9. Insist that your vet documents any adverse vaccine reactions in detail. Someday you may want to apply for rabies vaccine exemption.

I don't believe in the shots ethier I have had dogs die that had all there shots then I seen dogs that were perfectly heathly and give them there shots and they get what the shot is suppose to protect from thats my opinion so I don't give the shots ether excecpt the dogs I am going to sell

i just had my favorite pup pass away from parvo and i fallowed the shots to the day,according to the directions...just wonder how much they really help

A weak immune system, is a weak immune system.
Vaccines do not prevent an illness, but prime the immune system through exposure to weakened or killed virus to give it a step up on fighting it.
Genetics pass on superior immunity & high tier levels to the offspring, else the wild offspring would fare no better than their domestic cousins.
While those that are lost are better for the breed, we can't help but want to give whats under our control the best shot at survival. imho

Shots are designed to prevent the spead of viruses,and to help prevent the severity of the illness.Her luck is that we all have kept these things at bay for her thus her luck could run out at any give'n time.It's not a chance I want to take with my hounds.I've seen similar questions asked to differant vets and they all agree,that they are needed to prevent any health related problems. A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!Folks that dont vaccinate usually find trouble down the road.We all vaccinate our children,for things,some in with dont even exsit anymore,but them same folks dont question that.....Same reason to do it to animals.(Prevention).

Hollaback that has always been my thought process as well. But I'm open minded enough to look at the facts if new information is out about this. I do know this, drug companies make products to make money and I think they may over look future side effects to their drugs. Our vets don't make money unless they administer vaccines, so are they looking at our animals so are they really looking at our animals wellfare or looking to make a buck? Any Vets on this board that can ad to the discussion?

tizeKennels,
I clearly have a open mind when it comes to vaccines,drug companies,vets,and dogs!These clearly are differant times!But,folks that disreguard vaccines due to personal beliefs are misguided by faulse information.Lets put it this way; If you have a dog with kennel cough at a field trial, and you and your dog are there.Few days later your dog starts cough'n,then you go to the vets office,are you going to ask him how your dog got this?Are you going to say,well I did'nt think it was worth getting the shot,because I did'nt want my dog to get sick from it? It speads like wild fire! Very contaigous,and the health risks to older dogs are not good.I understand your concerns with all the "read the fine print stuff" but these vaccines go through a process that is vigorous to make them safe.If ya want to talk to folks thats dogs had any of these diseases they'll tell ya first hand they should have vaccinated!Saves alot of trouble and money! Then ya have to give antibiotics for several days and them are drugs from the same company you talked about not have'n your dogs best interest at heart!

But, there's no denying the higher tier level of natural immunity if hounds are left to their own and natural selection is allowed to happen(survival of the strongest), this is what Randall meant about, "the more we take on, the more we create a job never finished"... imho

At 5-10 bucks per dose of vaccine I'd rather play it safe and give it to them. We had a beagle pup that was never vaccinated contract parvo when I was a kid and it wasn't pretty. I never forgot that. I'll take my chances and vaccinate. Thats just my opinion, I vaccinate all my adult dogs and pups I raise and never had a problem with them having a side effect. I've also never had them get sick.....DH

I have always vaccinated my puppies with 3 or 4 sets of shots and my adults once a year and I personally have never had any problems or adverse side affects. I guess I haven't had any reason to look into this topic in depth because I've never known the controversial issues revolving around it, until this other breeder friend of mine brought it up. I'm continuing to read more and more about this on the internet as I've found alot of info on it. I think I will consider doing away with the combo shots and switching to monojections instead. Here's another interesting article I found, I think it's worth reading.


Combination Shots for Dogs: Weapons of Over-Vaccination
Written by Jan on September 9, 2009 – 11:04 am

Whombo combos, mumbo jumbos: that’s what veterinarians who understand immunology call combination shots. Unlike a vaccine such as rabies, which contains a single virus, combination vaccines contain multiple “modified live” viruses mixed with various bacteria. Think of them as toxic soups, biochemical wolves in sheep’s clothing. When your vet sends out reminders to bring your dog “up to date on shots,” expect the whombo combo. Beware the wolf.
You’ve probably seen combo shots listed on your vet bill as DHLPP, DHLPPC, DA2LPPC, 5-Way, 6-Way, 7-Way, 7 in 1 or the like. After you learn more about them, you won’t want to see them on a bill again.
Why would your vet use combination shots?
Profit and convenience are the big selling points. Vets in large corporate practices, even those who don’t like combo shots, may be under orders to use them.
I suspect some vets don’t realize (or want to believe) how dangerous these weapons of over-vaccination can be. Pharmaceutical reps, frequent visitors to veterinary clinics, promote the shot’s many benefits for the vets while minimizing potential risks for pets. Adverse reaction reporting is voluntary and rare. The 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association (WSAVA) Vaccine Guidelines reports (regarding all vaccines) there is: “gross under-reporting of vaccine-associated adverse events which impedes knowledge of the ongoing safety of these products.” Unless a vet is an avid veterinary journal reader, he/she may be stuck in the mindset of believing shots are safe and that if shots are good, more shots are better.
Proponents say that the combo saves Spot multiple needle pricks, and saves you and your vet time and money. True — but only if vaccinating against multiple diseases is really necessary … and only if expensive adverse reactions don’t occur.
Why should you avoid combination shots?
Immunity given by some vaccine components can last for years, even a lifetime, but other components may give immunity for less a year, yet they’re packaged together.
This is the pharmaceutical equivalent of packaging beef jerky and ice cream together. To keep immunity strong with short-duration vaccines, the long-duration vaccines have to be given again and again needlessly. This exposes your dog repeatedly, for no good reason, to adverse reactions which may include skin diseases, autoimmune disease, allergies and even death. Vets who still, for monetary reasons or ignorance, vaccinate annually find this practice quite convenient. Jab away. But vets who’ve switched to vaccinating every three years — which is still a misunderstanding of current guidelines recommending vaccinating “no more often” than every three years — aren’t using the short-duration vaccines often enough. Either they don’t believe the short-duration shots are really necessary (which is usually true) or they are being negligent and putting your dog at risk.
Some combo components are made from viruses, some are from bacteria, all delivered at once with a dangerous punch.
Dr. Patricia Jordan, author of Mark of the Beast, writes about one manufacturer’s combo shot: “… the absolutely worse adverse vaccine reactions have been noted with … the “mumbo jumbo” polyvalent with several modified live viruses, killed whole bacterins of Leptospirosis, killed corona virus (the vaccine looking for a disease), lots of adjuvant, mercury, aluminum, antibacterial like gentocin, antifungal and fungi stats, proprietary ingredients of whose true identity makes me shudder to even speculate.”
Author Catherine J.M. Diodati wrote about combination shots in her Vaccine Guide for Dogs & Cats: “The number of pathogens plus toxic and carcinogenic chemicals that the animals are exposed to all at once generate an enormous toll on the immune system. The results can be devastating.”
Small dogs and puppies suffer more adverse reactions when receiving multiple antigens at once.
Melissa Kennedy, DVM, PhD, DACVIM wrote in DVM360 on-line magazine: “The likelihood of adverse reactions in dogs has been found to correlate with the size of the dog and the number of inoculations given, with higher risk associated with small size and multiple inoculations.”
Renowned pet vaccination expert Dr. Jean Dodds has written about combo shots (she calls them combo whombos) that they: “can overwhelm the immunocompromised or even a healthy host…. The recently weaned young puppy or kitten being placed in a new environment may be at particular risk.”
This means: no combo shots for small dogs — or any other dog for that matter. And NEVER EVER GIVE ANY OTHER SHOT — ESPECIALLY A RABIES SHOT — WITHIN 3 WEEKS OF A COMBO. This also means no Bordetella given nasally. Giving rabies and Bordetella with a combo could mean as many as 9 shots in one day. Some dogs don’t survive this.
If your dog experiences a reaction to the combo shot, there is no way to determine which antigen caused the reaction and must be avoided in the future.
Determining which antigen caused the reaction is like trying to determine which ingredient is causing an allergic reaction to kibble. It can’t be done.
If all this isn’t bad enough, the components are unnecessary for most adult dogs, the great majority of which have lifetime immunity to the important shots or have no need for other ingredients.
So, exactly what’s in these combination shots?
The ingredients differ, but here are some in the most common combos.
Give me a D! Give me a P!
The D is for distemper and one P is for parvovirus. Your dog very likely has lifetime immunity to both if he has had even one shot for these diseases after 4 months of age. These are important shots, but they needn’t be given again and again. In fact, adult dogs rarely need revaccination for parvovirus and distemper and there is a simple blood test called a titer test that your vet can run to prove immunity.
H stands for hepatitis, a disease virtually nonexistent in North America. Sometimes this is expressed as A2, or adenovirus 2, which gives cross protection to hepatitis. According to the 2006 American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Task Force Report, it gives immunity for 7 or more years. To protect against the disease reemerging, renowned pet vaccination expert Dr. Ron Schultz recommends giving adenovirus-2 just once after a dog is 16 weeks old.
L is for leptospirosis, a highly-reactive “non-core” shot (says the AVMA, AAHA, AHVMA, and all North American vet schools). Non-core vaccines are to be given only in special cases, not to every dog who trots into the clinic. It often doesn’t even protect against the specific disease strains in your area. Jeffers Pet veterinary supply, a vaccine seller, warns: “Many vets do not recommend vaccinating small dogs or young pups with Lepto. The vaccine is not normally needed and can cause harsh and sometimes fatal reactions. House dogs do not need to be vaccinated for Lepto; adult outside dogs need to be vaccinated for Lepto only if there is a possibility of traveling in the same area as feral animals.”
The other P is for parainfluenza (giving immunity for at least 3 years). It is also a non-core shot and does not protect against the canine flu.
C is for coronavirus, a vaccine specifically “not recommended” by any major vet organization or school. Extremely rare, it’s called “a vaccine looking for a disease.” Diodati reports that the reactions from the shot are more dangerous than the disease itself.
Combination shots are part of the unethical practice of over-vaccination of pets. They should have no place in your dog’s health care regimen. And vets who use them should have no place in your dog’s life.
Did your vet inform you fully about this shot before giving it?
If your dog was given a combo shot, and your vet didn’t explain exactly what was in it, why your dog needed it, why your dog may not have needed certain components, and what adverse reactions they may cause, change vets (and tell him/her why) and report that vet to your state veterinary board for using products not backed by science and not informing you properly. This is the only way things will change. Veterinarians have a legal obligation to obtain your informed consent before vaccinating by fully disclosing benefits and risks of the suggested shot — and alternatives. Of course, had they told you the truth about these shots, you’d probably wouldn’t have consented.
Alternatives to Combo Shots
To avoid the combination shot, you have to take action and be willing to stand up to your vet (or switch vets). Most are reluctant to give up their cash cow. Here’s what to do:
1. Test titers for parvovirus and distemper. If titers are strong, don’t revaccinate. (If weak, read my article.) Forgo lepto, coronavirus, hepatitis and everything else unless your dog has an urgent, proven need because of the special circumstances of his lifestyle.
2. Avoid clinics that subscribe to “one size fits all” vaccination even though all vet schools and organizations recommend otherwise.
3. If you’re vaccinating a puppy, or a young dog with low antibody titers, ask your vet to use a monovalent vaccine (meaning the vial contains only one vaccine). Also, use vials with only one dose to avoid the extra chemicals preventing contamination in multi-dose vials. Three readily available vaccines include: Galaxy Pv (a shot containing only parvovirus, offering 7+ years of immunity) and Galaxy D (a shot containing only distemper, giving 5 or more years of immunity). If those aren’t available, use Intervet Progard Puppy DPV containing both parvovirus and distemper but nothing else.
4. If your vet won’t purchase monovalent shots (protesting that his distributor doesn’t carry them), purchase them yourself and have your vet give them. Refrigerate until use. Better yet, have them sent to your vet by the reseller. You may not be able to purchase just one vial, but the extra cost is worth the savings from potential adverse reactions.
5. Better still, find a holistic vet who’ll know how to vaccinate, or not vaccinate, without harming your dog and already use monovalent vaccines.
I asked holistic vet Tamara Hebbler what she thought about combo shots. She responded: “I won’t give them. Ever! You couldn’t pay me enough to use them. It’s like playing Russian Roulette with your dog’s health. The risks are just too great.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Other posts you might like:
If you have a small or medium-sized dog: Vaccinating Small Dogs: Risks Vets Aren’t Revealing
Is Your Dog’s Vet a Vaccination Expert?
Vaccinating Unhealthy Pets: Beware Reactions & Vaccine Failure
Vaccinating Dogs: 10 Steps to Eliminating Unnecessary Shots
Titer Test: Don’t Vaccinate Your Dog Unnecessarily
Dog Flu Vaccine: Do You Really Need a Shot for the H3N8 Canine Virus?
Find links to vaccination recommendations by the American Animal Hospital Association and WSAVA, plus more information on vaccinating, Vaccinating Dogs: What Your Vet Hasn’t Told You
And please, bookmark this article and forward it to friends. Just one combo shot can destroy a dog’s health forever.
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Tags: vaccine vaccination dog dogs veterinarian
http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2009/09/3 ... revealing/

Lots of good information in your article.What cocerns me is that most shots now are all killed viruses that have to be mixed (powder/liquid).These shots are based on a virus that is killed so the ammune system reconizes the invader.(Keeps it on it's toes).or are they refering to live virus vaccines?????

Holla back, I still have to do some more research on that, but if I recall right I think they are recommending live virus injections. Don't quote me on that though. It's an interesting topic, worthy of discussing anyway.

Interesting for sure! My thoughts were that live viruses were a thing of the past.Most now are killed viruses....Just to keep the system in check.

Here is my problem with this...
1.

Vaccine reactions/overdoses are SEVERELY under reported

Says who--where is the peer reviewed study??? anytime you give any shot to anyone or anything you could consider "redness" a reaction. The VAST majority of dogs DO NOT have reactions to the drugs...THe 7 way has a slightly increased chance of reaction but thats just the nature of the other vaccine in it but that happens with a single shot as well.
2. Giving a dog more shots than it needs even at intervals once a year (which i also disagree with doing) isn't going to hurt the dogs any more or less than every three years. Dogs simply do not live long enough for the tumors and cancer causing agents, (if there even are any) in the shots to have an affect on the dog..Humans have this problem because we live 80yrs or more not 10-14.

Randell must not been to smart of a guy then because vaccines have saved BILLIONS of peoples lives and hundreds of millions or more animal lives... Rabies is almost eliminated and instead of 20,000 cases a year we have maybe 10-20 on a bad year... Small pox eradicated, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, polio, to name a few are things you do not have because of vaccines. Beagles are not natually in the wild so it is our responsibility to make sure they are kept safe in our care. Even if 1 out of 10,000 die from the shot then its worth it so we don't have 1 out of 10 die from disease.. IMO

My dad breeds rots for a living and they are MORE suceptible (especially the show/working bred rots)to parvo than most breeds and he has lost tens of thousands of dollars because of it.. I would bet any amount of money in the world that the lady who was referenced would not allow her pups around it and not be vaccinated because 100% of them would get it and 90% would die.. She is playing with fire and will get burned one day if she is telling the truth. Nor would I buy or breed with her if her dogs are not vaccinted..

I do agree that over vaccinating is a problem but NOT vaccinating or Not using a 5/7 combo is NOT the answer...

I give one a 6 weeks 6 months and a year,then never again. Never lost a pup or Hound. I do give Kennel Cough shots every year. Rabies as the law requires.