A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
Jamie,
Interesting stuff! Ya learned me something I did not know. That being different speeds for the same formats depending on geographic location. I will have to think on this for awhile. I believe you know what you're talking about on this subject. At least you certainly have convinced me you do! I don't know if I like the idea however. It seems like there would be no consistency. And saying that you own an SPO or any other style hound really would be a vague statement. I knew very early ino the trials I was entered in that my hounds were a different style and much faster than the rest of the cast. But thats not to say they were in any way "rough" or disruptive. I think much in the same manner that judges say a hound runs to much rabbit as you ave eluded to, they also confuse the ability to push a rabbit fast as "rough"and "disruptive". Although I agree it must be frustrating to see a rabbit go flying by with a hound in close pursuit while the rest are clumped together half a loop back, doing there best to catch up. This is not to say one is better or worse than the other, just different! And it was up to me to recognize the difference so as not to screw up these guys at every trial or to have me and my hounds become a nusiance. I had no hard feelings it just wasn't our bag. And I knew it! To say a hound is rough and disruptive though is a bit of a dig however especially if they are not. Sometimes they really are just that good! That would be like me ribbing the others because their hounds were in my mind "slow". Or offering their hounds my athsma puffer! Again thanks for the info I will ponder it for awhile.
Good night
NYH
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
Big Dog, no problem. Anytime I can be of any help to you or anyone else that visits this board don't hestitate to ask. Like I've always said if I can't answer I'll try to find you someone that can.
Hillbilly, I didn't mean to insinuate that you guys that have been picked up for "running too much rabbit" have rough dogs. What I mean is that's what a lot of judges who say that mean. I wasn't there to see the trial therefore I can't say whether a dog is rough or not. If it sounded like I was trying to take a dig at anyone's dog them I'm sorry, but that wasn't the intention. I was just trying to explain what some judges mean by saying the "running too much rabbit" line. I didn't mean to offend anyone if I did.
As for not liking the idea of different speeds in the same format. Well no two dogs are the same, so it's kind of hard to expect thousands upons thousands would be. I guess if one wants to compete with their hounds they'll find a format or registry that fits them. Whether it's AKC SPO or Large Pack, ARHA LP or PP, or the different divisions of UKC and the other registries out there.
I agree with you on the a lot of judges confusing being able to push the rabbit as fast. That's why I said that Midwest hounds are criticized a lot by other factions beagling. And I agree that sometimes those fast dogs are just that good. Good running to you and yours... don't slay too many this hunting season.
Jamie D. Rice FUZZ'S BEAGLES "I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." - Philippians 4:13 KJV
Hillbilly. there are some SPO trials in NY that favor a faster dog. You will have to find the right Federation. I know SPO on hare will usually favor a faster dog in the right Federation. I have friends that run in the Mid-west trials run them and have had dogs entered in them myself . You might also want to try UKC Hunting Beagle format and UKC SPO formats. They both favor a good fast dog. I know Full Circle Houndsmen and Java Village Both run the UKC SPO and Full Circle runs Hunting Beagle too. Check around and get some info. on the different Federations.
Hey guys,
Thanks for the input. It's a nice change of pace when you can exchange info and have a good time with no slamming and killing each other. These are the times I enjoy getting involved and posting!
Peace
NYH
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
so which format would be the best for a semi fast dog that doesnt lose much. only reason i need fast dog is when the snow is deep a slow dog might not move at all. the fastest are pretty slow when swimming in snow. im looking for cold nosed dogs. i know this is almost a dirty word to some beaglers. saw two high priced beagles yesterday that i have it from a good source are great on bare ground. they couldnt run at all. i had two dogs i consider just a little better than average that ran sometimes for a couple hours without a major loss. have a lot of guys from down country hunt with me and this happens a lot. these dogs are suposed to run on snow. i think that almost any dog can run on fresh packy snow and people confuse that with running on snow everyday. need dogs that can run on snow a week old. wet super sloppy snow. rain, crust, windy, below zero. this is the northeast kingdom ive seen all of the above conditions in one weekend a lot of times and can think of one day we had all of the above . anybody know where theres some real snow dogs please let me know. pete
Ideally,a semi-fast dog that doesn't lose much should be able to do good in ANY trial format. Especially if it is doing it in bad conditions when the others are struggling. But in any trial there is always a human factor involved and no two humans see everything exactly the same way all the time. Just the same, any dog no matter what speed doing it right under any conditions should be able to good in any trial format in any registrie. I don't remember reading a defined speed in any rules other than where AKC says" pursue with the intent to overtake". The people judging and running dogs in different formats are the ones that determine what speed will do good in that format, not the dogs. Remember I said "Ideally".
Pete this is Gary from Pa. came up and hunted last year with you had a Brittany for grouse.I had 2 buddies with me.I brought 6 beagles with me.Did you get the beagles you were looking for.How's the snowshoes and how much snow you got?How's the grouse?
NYHillbilly, If you ever feel the urge to spread some of that hare hound stock around, I know of a Kyhillbilly that would like to try it. Like the song, "too much just ain't enough" rabbit here. Have a good day, I have enjoyed this discussion tremendously! Best wishes to all.
Jamie, That was a very inforative post Thank you.
I have run in mostly AKC lp hare trails and style hounds. I have also run in a few AKC spo hare I ran AKC spo rabbit once.
To me haveing mainly lp breed hounds which are fast hard hitting HARE hounds and gunn them in the wild would like to have a differnt style hound to do the same on a RABBIT. We basicly are running and trialing 2 differnt animals and would A hound breed for hare( IE: faster quarry, straighter running,and not holing) be as good running cottintail? I would like to say yes but the truth you would see alot of rough actions so to speak( over running, Etc..) out out of that hound and would expected to be picked up in a rabbit trial. The same to be said of a rabbit breed of hound in a hare trial( exspcialy lp) The hound would be mid or back of the pack and would not get the chance to be seen only on a hard check if lucky. someone stated Akc lp change his hound forever Well he is right. The pressure and competion is alot for a hound to handle expecialy if its a little pack rabbit breed hound. Even running and trialing Akc lp hare a hound thats breed for it and never smelled a rabbit can easly be "blown up" from Lp hare trials. You can deffenate make them rough and crazy. The same is said for spo hare vs. spo rabbit still going to be running in the back or the brace with a rabbit breed dog. Even though that rabbit hound is tight to that line the faster hare breed hound with less pressure will be also ( i would hope) and the rabbit hound will be running scent that has been trampled on by other hounds and on the check that hare hound will ( although not considered good) reach out a bit further than the rabbit dog and miss the check. Now that is my take on the styles and if i moved south I would be out of luck and need to invest in a differnt breed of beagle to run a differnt animal to do well in trials. They should be judged differnt they arnt running the same game. If I were bold enough to say in a form like this that when my dogs got pulled the running was over And post that my dogs were pulled for "running to much rabbit" I would expect some feed back that wasn't exactly possitive. But I wont go there but I will tell you that the judges saw something that was disrupting the running of the pack and would probbably say that your dogs couldn't handle that much pressure and were rough. By no meens am I telling you you dogs are no good because I would be dead wrong. You will kill many rabbits in front of them. But I will say that you would be better off trialing on rabbit or at the very most spo hare. I am just saying stick to what the style and breeding the hound was ether breed for or started and ran on. someone kind of smeeered AKC and the LP hare side with your posting. Jamie cleared it up well. Judging lp hare isnt easy and your dog wont be seen with 50 others on the ground unless its a good hare hound. The judges have got to get the stuff out of the pack that are disrupting the running or arnt getting any score so the dogs doing the work can be looked at closer and when the trial is over it is exactly like spo hare because you have pulled out every hound that dosent have the score to place. I know it sucks to travle hours and hours to be pulled out the first hour but thats the game. Dont bring them if they arn't your best and think that they will shine in a pack of other hounds the size like 30-50. Its a differnt game lp hare even if you have a grand rabbit champ you cant expect to place in that game. Dose that make your dog no good no way!!! that dog can run a good close line but just not what drives a hare.
Last edited by Dave H on Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To Dave H - First of all this post is 2 years old, and I was brand new to the trialing game at the time and was trying to get some info. I didn't smear Large Pack at all. If you go back and read my post I asked a question in my first post and said thank you to Jamie Rice for explaining things to me in my 2nd post. I didn't give an opinion at all because at the time I didn't know anything about AKC trials at all. I think you may have my posts mixed up with someone elses.
Reread this topic and then direct your post to the proper party, which definitely isn't me.
Big Dog
Black and Tans, Blue Ticks, and a few others bringing smoke
I run Mid-West AKC SPO on rabbit. I have traveled with my best hounds to a couple AKC northern large pack on hare trials. I agree it is a different game. When there was a loss or check in the race , all of the hounds knew to reach ahead and got wide real quick while my dog that was used to running a tricky cottontail stayed close to the point of loss. Needless to say my hound found herself way behind early. After a while, she started getting wide with the others and got some score, but it was too late. On the flip side, most large pack on hare hounds that come to SPO on rabbit are much too wide in the check area and seem to race without a lot of line control. The guys who have had success in both usually live in an area where they can run both rabbit and hare and their hounds learn to adjust. I think the very elite hounds should be able to do well in both if given time to adjust.
You are right Big dog I got the wrong handle very sorry!!! There was alot of reading there and while reading I had my own thoughts on the issue and posted. It was another person and This time I am not going to mention a name people can read and see for them self. I am verry sorry about the mix up in name my mistake. As far as the time line of the post goes its still on the server still a topic. I am sorry and will edit but Nobody has to be sorry about the differnt breeds and styles of trials we have in this sport time is not an issue when it comes to the topic. I am sorry and will use the time issue in future posts I make KNOWING that it will be a part of the site as long as this site is here. Sorry big dog about the name mix up about the trialing experance that was posted that made lph look bad.
Again thanks for the info I will ponder it for awhile. 
