Where are we Headed???

[T LEE]

Question 1--- How many have bred a really nice female to really nice male and got pups that was better than the parents (in their prime)???

Question 2----Name some offspring that turned out better than the big named stud and dominate mother they were out of???


A buddy and I spoke on the phone the other night and could not name 10 pups (off the top of our head) that turned out better than their parents. Now I’m not talking about just a breeding between two mediocre or average rabbit dogs but rather an extra nice sire and female. When some of the best out there (male and female) are bred it seems the offspring seldom turn out to be 80% of what their parent are. I’m Not saying the offspring are bad but rather the talent level is Not that of their parents (or ever will be). I’ve ran with and judged Field Champion’s, World hunt Winners, State Champions and seldom do I see offspring that turn out better than their parents. Are we fooling ourselves???

Is the Beagle breed on a downhill spiral??

[dog]

I dont believe the beagle breed is headed anywhere other than where its been for hundreds of years , i agree , seldom does the so called perfect cross work , but how many of those great males or those great females that are out there being bred came from those "average " dogs , i would say a ton of them , just goes to show that you cant predict a breeding , you get what you get

[MaineDogs]

but how many of those great males or those great females that are out there being bred came from those "average " dogs , i would say a ton of them

So true!, how many of these "great" dogs that are being crossed right now came from a great pair of dogs? When you cross the best to the best but you have average dogs behind them for generations and generations your probably going to end up with what ever is behind this said cross.

[gwyoung]

T LEE, you know when your breeding program is headed in the right direction when your current dogs are better on the average than the dogs in their pedigree on the average. I know folks who had good dogs 25 years ago and have continued breeding dogs and currently their dogs are not very good and I wouldn't want a pup from them, MOST breeders fall into this category, take a look around at folks you know and I believe you will see that it is true. As we look at these folks we will also notice something else, they are constantly breeding to whatever wonder dog is currently hot on the market, a sure fire plan for failure, They are drawing to an inside straight, this is not playing the odds it is wishing for luck. As no one can be lucky for long their breeding program goes sour. These folks need to let someone else breed their pups for them. More to your point, Superdogs, generally do not produce Superdogs and they themselves are rarely ever the direct product of a Superdog. ( they are rare) What most Superdogs that I am familiar with are is the product of a very good line or lines of hounds in general. I said all of that to say this; There is nothing wrong with breeding to Superhounds and in fact it is the right thing to do under the right circumstances, But to breed to them without considering their style, strong points, and faults in relation to your females characteristics and may I add bloodline,( I am a big fan of linebreeding) is a big mistake and people make this mistake more often than any I can think of. You want to breed a Superhound, the odds are in your favor if you are consistently breeding very good hounds, and this should be what we are trying to do. To just constantly breed to big name hounds trying to get that one dog wonder instead of trying to breed a line of very good hounds is a mistake. I do not breed to a Super hound hoping to get a Superhound, most experienced breeders will know better than this.

[Big Mike]

Question 1--- How many have bred a really nice female to really nice male and got pups that was better than the parents (in their prime)???

Question 2----Name some offspring that turned out better than the big named stud and dominate mother they were out of???


A buddy and I spoke on the phone the other night and could not name 10 pups (off the top of our head) that turned out better than their parents. Now I’m not talking about just a breeding between two mediocre or average rabbit dogs but rather an extra nice sire and female. When some of the best out there (male and female) are bred it seems the offspring seldom turn out to be 80% of what their parent are. I’m Not saying the offspring are bad but rather the talent level is Not that of their parents (or ever will be). I’ve ran with and judged Field Champion’s, World hunt Winners, State Champions and seldom do I see offspring that turn out better than their parents.

Lets take it a step further, how times have we seen a very good or a great dog come from a specific cross, then make that exact cross again (aka) proven cross, and not get doodlie squat?

[Dale Pea]

I guess I will add to the topic with a question. I know a guy who has breed his female to some of the best males around. He has always had very good luck with turning out some outstanding hounds. However, he doesnt go back for repete breedings (at least that I know of), why wouldnt you? If you make grands out of 7 dogs from one liter why not go back a second time?

[gwyoung]

BIG MIKE, Good point, about making a good cross and then repeating the cross and getting junk. It happens. This will happen far more often with outcrosses. It has been my experience that if the two hounds are intensely linebred the results of each mating will be similiar, If one litter is junk the next litters will be junk also, If the first litter is good then you will generally get good pups in each litter afterwards.

[Lone Pine Beagles]

Some lines have a consistent run for several generations.
Depends also on who breeds to the studs.

If i'm reading you right are we talking.....

Ranger Dan.....Green Bay Shooter.....Butkus.....Pawking

East Coast Trimmer.....Jack of all Trades.....Heli-Prop.....Turbo.....Reggie.....(pick one)

[Greg Wells]

Keeping a solid bitch line is the most important thing when breeding in my opinion. Choosing the right male for your good bitch that will add or help in areas that your line may be lacking is important. I only have one female, but she has more potential than anything I've personally bred myself. I've owned the bitch line for 4 generations. I guess you can trace it back to Anna's Ann, FTC Branko's Dutch Weifke, FTC Branko's Peggy Sue, Camp Creek Gertrude, Elk Creeks Amazing Grace, Gay's Spring Creek Robin, FC Wells' Silver Spring, Wells Woods Silver Star, FCGD Wells Woods Valentine to Wells Woods Silver Bubbles. Lord willing, Bubbles will produce some hounds I will be proud of in the future.

[T LEE]

Some lines have a consistent run for several generations.
Depends also on who breeds to the studs.

If i'm reading you right are we talking.....

Ranger Dan.....Green Bay Shooter.....Butkus.....Pawking

East Coast Trimmer.....Jack of all Trades.....Heli-Prop.....Turbo.....Reggie.....(pick one)

Good examples. No disrespect intened to any of these males. I'll use the males mentioned.

Keep in mind these are the best representatives of each line. Hundreds of others from these same lines didn't make the standards of the ones mentioned.

Ranger Dan , is Shooter or Butkus better than Dan??

I've spoke to a few guys that Saw Heli-Prop ,Turbo and Reggie run. They say Heli-Prop was much better than any offspring. Not trying to take away from any male mentioned and all are fine dogs.

Offspring being better than their parents seem few .

I've enjoyed the responces guys. Keep them coming.

[pcable]

I have to agree with Greg. A good solid bitch line is extremely important to keep producing good dogs. I have a linebred Northway female from Dexter Reffett's line that ecause is as consistant a producer as you can ask for. She isn't a great rabbit dog in my opinion because she lacks the speed that I like. everything else is great but the speed. I have bred her to different males with the same results. Her pups have always had great hunt, brains, and foot.
Another female that I had the pleasure of watching run was the same way. She was a grandpup to both Haunted Hill Shaker and Trakarab Pacesetter. She consistantly produced good dogs no matter what she was bred to. That is why I have a female out of her and a direct Shaker male in my kennel who is also a great rabbit dog herself. I also have a grandpup to her and Ali-Baba in my kennel who is just as good.
I think if you build your program around quality lines of females you will consistantly produce quality pups!

[gwyoung]

T LEE, I am not sure I am understanding your question correctly. Is your question ; Are there stud dogs that have produced or are producing better dogs than what they are? If so the answer is yes, there are thousands of examples. You Mentioned Ranger Dan, was he not better than his sire, East Coast trimmer, was he not better than his Sire, Dingus McCrae was he not better than his Sire, How about Gay Baker, Nomad's Buckshot Mr. Bill, The list is endless. There are a lot of kennels which get better every year they must be producing dogs better than what they have had. Or is it your point that these dogs are a few generations back and this caliber is not out there anymore, or is it that there are some big time studs currently out there that are not producing any dogs of their caliber? As far as there not being any dogs as good as the studs of of few generations back I have an opinion on that. First off,I believe as a whole dogs are better now than they have ever been, ( I guess this is my answer to your original question of, which way are we headed?) So these great dogs of the past would not stand so far above everything else today, maybe a little but it would not be as evident today, secondly, As dogs die they get much better at their work. and lastly Take any great dog of the past that you can name and I can be pretty confident that there are ten dogs that none of us ever heard of that was as good , simply because he was a hunting dog and a hunting dog only, how many trials do you think were being held in the 1800's, early 1900's. But Dogs are on the average getting better, Superhounds generally do not produce Superhounds and they never did. If I breed to a Superhound and do not get a Superhound I am not disappointed, I would not expect one, and I think that is a lot of the problem today, It seems to me a lot of folks breed to a Superhound and when they don't get a Superhound out of him they are disappointed and bad mouth the stud, one should never be expected, and in most cases the breeding was made only because the male advertised was a Superhound and no thought whatsoever was given to the female's characteristics in relation to the Males, Given this, there should not even be an expectation that average pups will be thrown! Nap time.

[bluemouse]

The way I see it is that when you have that special dog you got its just that one in a thousand or more, they have the brians, desire, hunt, handle good the whole package. They are special they are not a dime a dozen. Breeding the best to best does not always produce world beaters or that one special dog we hope for. They produce good or better than average but hopeing to get that one special dog is a crap shoot they just show up from time to time if your lucky enough to get one enjoy, we all know that these dogs only happen once in our life time and if we are blessed some may see a couple.

[T LEE]

T LEE, I am not sure I am understanding your question correctly. Is your question ; Are there stud dogs out there producing or have produced better dogs than what they are? If so the answer is yes, there are thousands of examples. You Mentioned Ranger Dan, was he not better than his sire, East Coast trimmer, was he not better than his Sire, Dingus McCrae was he not better than his Sire, How about Gay Baker, Nomad's Buckshot Mr. Bill, The list is endless. There are a lot of kennels which get better every year they must be producing dogs better than what they have had.

gwyoung, I included the female (mother of the offspring) in my question because if I ask ...Are Stud dogs producing better than they are?The first thing guys say is What about the female bred?

East Coast Trimmer was not Ranger Dans Sire . If Dingus McCrae, Gay Baker or Mr Bill produced Direct offspring that were better than they were.....I want to hear their Names.

I don't think we have had anyone yet say......I bred my 2 time State Champion female to Junie , Reggie, Speedy Sport, Shooter, Zoom or Jasper and say I have offspring that turned out better than either parent. (Nobody go crazy in defence, these are Sire's off the top of my head )

[bigdogpace]

troy i have asked same ? the dogs of today to me jmo r not as good as dogs were years ago . ive bred to some of all the top dogs and never get what they claim they r even with what i consider atop notch bitch . i have failed to get apack of 10 dogs that sastisfy me ive bought enough pups from every where and bred to alot of dogs and i have simply failed to establish my own line of hounds cant seem to get 1 over 3 yrs . old without something happened to it . now im not talking about ame to dog im talking about adog that can circle there own rabbit with few mistakes and checks and longer they run the better they get im talking a rabbit dog not what some call arabbit dog .i have went and saw some with more little letters n fornt of there name than u can count would not eat my feed sorry thats just what ive witnessed. but im not going to give up . still searching and trying mayb 1 day i'll hit the nail on the head n stead of bending it .im sorry 4 the most part i dont c the breed improving . i think we need to get our eyes off the flavor of the month and pedigree s and start looking at the dog champion or not .hope i didnt offend anyone just my thoughts on my experince n my kennels . certainly does not reflect others and there breeding programs