Where are we Headed???

[Dogman]

To many varibles to compare any two dogs, besides the fact that ones mans trash is another mans treasure. Would be willing to bet , that if most people found a line of dogs that they liked and breed only with in that bloodline with an ocassional out cross for vigor, that they would more content with pups produced. Consistency is good thing and I believe its comes from breeding a line of solid dogs back to themselves (line breeding) and not from breeding the so called great ones to other so called great ones from different bloodlines. One way you can expect certian qualities the other way you can only hope for certian qualities. As for original question I'am content with my dogs today not afraid to show them to anyone but I certianally hope to improve on them.

[DMP]

Troy,
I personnally know of a cross that was made many time. (same sire& dam) First litter produced several field champions but one was a once in a life time dog. Really special dog........Later litters produced many nice dogs. Sevral more field chapions but none that compared to the one. I have often wondered why that one was so much better than the others and couldn't be re-produced? Was it something in the dogs early years of trianing? Who knows? I say that because this dog set a new standard many. Unfortunately the owner couldn't reproduce him within the same cross.

[gwyoung]

T LEE, I know who Ranger Dan's Sire was, I may not of phrased it very well but if you will read it again you will see that I was asking the same question about East Coast Trimmer that I was asking about Ranger Dan, Dingus McCrae, Gay Baker, and Mr. Bill. I think I have a better understanding of your question though, and My answer is that knowledgeable breeders do not expect superdogs out of superdogs, and neither should anyone else. There is nothing wrong in the beagle world when superdogs are not producing Superdogs and once again most knowledgeable breeders will not be surprised at this. In my opinion Mr. Bill. Gay Baker, and Dingus McCrae did not produce their equal either in direct offspring or otherwise , but they did improve the breed , that is what we should be doing.

[T LEE]

T LEE, I know who Ranger Dan's Sire was, I may not of phrased it very well but if you will read it again you will see that I was asking the same question about East Coast Trimmer that I was asking about Ranger Dan, Dingus McCrae, Gay Baker, and Mr. Bill. I think I have a better understanding of your question though, and My answer is that knowledgeable breeders do not expect superdogs out of superdogs, and neither should anyone else. There is nothing wrong in the beagle world when superdogs are not producing Superdogs and once again most knowledgeable breeders will not be surprised at this. In my opinion Mr. Bill. Gay Baker, and Dingus McCrae did not produce their equal either in direct offspring or otherwise , but they did improve the breed , that is what we should be doing.

gwyoung , with all due respect. If each breeder accepts this logic I just don't see how the bred will ever improve. If I'm reading you right then here is the example............You take Miss Jones (Not real Names ) who has 4 wins and bred her to MR. Smith who has 4 wins and is a World hunt Winner. Both have similar bloodlines. The pups turn out to be only 65% as good as Sire and Miss Jones. Those offspring are line bred resulting in pups that are only 45% as good as the Original Miss Jones and Mr. Smith. You can see where I'm going with this.

[deadeyebeagle]

this ? goes out to everyone but gwyoung. how many of you keep the whole litter until they are mature??

[NoShowBeagles]

Stud dog crazes ruin dogs. I was in coonhounds for 15 years. jus a country young boy with a dog off of my father figures grand nite male and his nephews grand nite female. Haze was bred great. Granded him out at two and a half years old when i was TWELVE!!!! It wasnt the handler winning either!!! Won 6 major hunts before he was 5. Couldnt pay people to breed to him. They were to busy driving 10 or 12 hours to the newest fad and paying 500 to 1000 to breed. Any of these pups turn out? Heck no. Breed haze twice. first litter the man got barred from pkc when his bitch was almost at whelping. they were never registered and never heard from him a gain. 4 year ago a buddy hunted with him and decided to breed. 5 out of 7 pups are grand nites and the other 2 nite ch. Haze got cancer and went sterile about 2 years after the pups at 10 years old. Look at the stud and his pups run before you jump in. Could have a litter of culls!!! that great reporducer may be behind a barn somewhere with a old man pleasure hunter who dont go to trials. You never know. And to those who have that nice male dont be disheartened by the kennel blind man with the worthless gyp wanted them miricle pups! I saw this alot in coonhounds. Im relitivly new to beagles but jus my two cents on breeding dogs.

[gwyoung]

T LEE, with the same level of respect, you are not reading me correctly. Most of what I wrote was toward your question of does anyone know of any pups out of big time studs ( I have called them superdogs ) or dominant females something along those lines, that are as good as their parents, Fair enough? I may still be misunderstanding but I believe your question is why aren't these big time studs, Females, superdogs or whatever, producing dogs like them. My answer was simply that they are rare individuals and they do not produce superhounds like themselves with any regularity or they would not be the outstanding individuals that they are. No offense intended in any way but you can't blame a rare individual for not producing another rare individual , most breeders are aware of that. I am not seeing your question any other way due to the fact that we all know field champions are still producing field champions and non field champions are indeed producing field champions, aren't these examples of heading in the right direction?
deadeyebeagle, You spelled two words wrong in your short question, Now we all mis-spell from time to time but your example leads me to believe that I am using too big of words for you, I can dumb it down for you If you will allow me to answer your question. Exactly what was it that caused your attack on me, was I personally addressing you at some point, I don't recall it!

[bodetis]

i personally just rabbit hunt, but in my opinion to many dogs are being bred to perform the guidelines of field trials. now before i ruffle feathers im not saying all but some. iv seen some very good trial dogs that was as great under the gun as they are in the trials. but iv also seen some that had hardly no hunt and could not jump their own rabbit, but when the race was on they fight for the front and use the speed to stay in the lead. its like it was more about compeiting against the dogs instead of hunting and running that rabbit i try and buy from regular hunters with good solid gundogs, weither they be grade or papered. either way its a crap shoot!

[Newt]

If you didn't see those Hall Of Fame dogs run, on what measure are you basing your opinion that the dogs today don't equal or surpass the abilities of their ancestors? I saw Gay Baker run. What in anyone's opinion was his accomplishment. To my knowledge, he was never entered in an AKC trial. Traditional Brace was the testing mechanism in his day. He has a record as a producer. When bred to a bitch of Hare breeding he produced a LPH FC, B&K's Rock. When bred to a bitch of cottontail breeding he produced FC Glynn's Gay Demon. That was a pretty remarkable accomplishment although it was probably aided by the fact that the SPO Gundog movement was in its infancy and the trend toward slower hounds had not yet bottomed out.
Speaking for myself, I've been in beagles for about forty years. IMO, I have more good dogs now than at any time in those forty years. That is the result of breeding a lot of bitches, starting a lot of pups, and culling a lot of dogs that didn't meet my standard.

[gwyoung]

NEWT, Good post, Your dogs are better now than they used to be for one reason,it is called knowing what you are doing. To those who have dogs that are getting worse instead of better, and there are quite a few , something is wrong with your method.

[bodetis]

when dogs are agressive and bang and push and fight for the front and swing out and cut off other dogs, those are the ones im talking about. and some do breed for those qualities,instead of focusing on hard hunting jumpdogs. i want a dog with hard hunt and is a fairly good jump dog, one that runs, hunts, and works with the pack are what i look for in a dog. not one that know s he out there compeiting with the other dogs instead of working with them. you honestly cant say that there are not dogs out there like that. those are the ones im talking about. again i say some not the majority. im not a breeder and dont care to be.i know its a lot of work with trial and error. but being a hunter my whole life i see a difference in some of todays dogs.

[sbeagler]

breeding solid individuals is just the first half of it. the second half involves ascertaining the litters ability once they start seperating by their learning curves. i like to have a first string second string. i then like to solo for several weeks then put them head to head to determine whose able to hang with that top knotcher in the litter. those that cant hang get benched and are culled. i dont think keeping a bitch just cause the pedigree is pretty is reason enough to breed her. i firmily believe breeding quality animals. not all hare hounds make good cottontail hounds but most hounds that can hook up on a cottontail and run one down from big time pressure will certainily smoke a hare's a--. some people just train dogs like rolling dice and dont really analyze these things that are important so they never have consistency. some even raise huge numbers of puppies each year to get their prize hound among the group but amazingily some small back yard breeders with their one or two litters are still in there getting their licks in. that being said my hats off to them. Greg you have done well without not having a huge kennel, Don Hoag is another one, John Monkman, Jack blum,Ros Dasno, White Oak Kennels, Jeff Martin of course great hounds just can produce over the years. Not every cross is guaranateed you have to see how the two add up great ones to great ones is what we all want, but sometimes we may only have just a good bitch and settle for great to good. all in all if the bitch has desire a decent nose and is smart you still might be pleasantly suprised. some hounds produce better than themselves as we all know thats been around for a while. anyway if the ingredients are in place you cant be lazy you have to pound them.i seen certain hounds change hands that done nothing in the previous owners hands suddenily comes a high hound for the guy who knew how to make the clock tick just right.bottom line the trainer can be the hounds biggest handicap second only to its breeding.

[goodpickens]

Define a "superhound." For me its right on the line, only bark when the rabbit is jumped, trash free, 7+ speed. I know some people who like nothing better than a hard swinging horse race. It's hard to define if offspring are better than their sires on the whole when there are so many definitions of better. Great topic with as many answers as there are opinions.

[FreeHoller40]

I agree with you goodpickens, and whats funny to watch is when a nice fast hard line runner burns a swinger because he screwed up...

[Shotgun John]

Where are we headed? Non barking beagles that won't pack if they ever get back to where they can smell a rabbit in an area that has too many rabbits. But I don't know that I will keep the beagle because it drools a little and eats it's own poop. This statement sums up about what I read on the beagle boards. Just so you know I don't have a problem with a drooly dog eating it's own poop.