Heavy inbreeding or linebreeding

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Yea sorry junies momma was a father to daughter cross. My beagles I stop just because I got what I wanted. There is a few more crosses in the works. I don't know why this cross makes everyone so jittery. Think of this once ya got a bitch bred like this then ya can start looking for the right Stud.

[JCM]

Onstott: If you can't cull, then don't breed.

IMO that is the only downfall with linebreeding--too many people are not willing to cull those that need it. Linebreeding has proven valuable over and over. The only time it doesn't improve the breed is when the breeder is not willing to cull.

[cris axtell/coal hill ken]

Littlewoody My line started with Lahti's Brush Hog A.K.A. Hog Dog. No disrespect Ron I guess I should of said you are misinformed if you think line breeding produces bug eyed, bull legged, short eared idiots. Mybeagles I think you judged my half brother to half sister crossed 10 mo old 15 in male that took 3rd at the java village derby trial two months ago. Not bad for a bug eyed, bull legged, short eared idiot. LOL As for a fun run were having one at my place Sept 14+15. Posted in various beagling events. Come see some inbred idiots run. There will be plenty there.

[Pine Lakes]

I personally, am not big on inbreeding. I am however in favor of line breeding, maybe to a fault. I'm certainly not a big breeder nor do I want to be in fear of the lack of burial grounds. I've overlooked good studs for lesser dogs(still good though) in an attempt to "highlight" the characteristics of a particular line. It is my opinion that certain lines handle inbreeding and linebreeding better than others. The old Mt Zion Pete lines seemed to react differently than say the Fish Creek line of hounds. It seemed to me that heavy linebred Pete dogs could be very aggressive while the Fish Creek strain seemed to develop shyness and lose size. Like I say about everything concerning the breeding of beagles, noone has all the answers. What works for one person may be a total disaster for someone else.

Every breeding begins as a Hypothesis if you will. The Scientific Method can be applied(in a sense) to breeding.
1. Choose and define the phenomenon that you want to figure out and explain. (proven cross)
2. Collect information (data) about this phenomena by going where the phenomena occur and making observations. Or, try to replicate this phenomena by means of a test (breeding) under controlled conditions that eliminates interference's from environmental conditions.
3. After collecting a lot of data, look for patterns in the data. Attempt to explain these patterns by making a provisional explanation, called a hypothesis. (expose the offspring to consistent training and don't "cherry pick" for results)
4. Test the hypothesis by collecting more data to see if the hypothesis continues to show the assumed pattern.(Repeat the breeding) If the data does not support the hypothesis, it must be changed, or rejected in favor of a better one. In collecting data, one must NOT ignore data that contradicts the hypothesis in favor of only supportive data(cherry picking). If a refined hypothesis survives all attacks on it and is the best existing explanation for a particular phenomenon, it is then elevated to the status of a theory.
A theory is subject to modification and even rejection if there is overwhelming evidence that disproves it and/or supports another, better theory. Therefore, a theory is not an eternal or perpetual truth.

The last sentence says it all. Nothing in the world of breeding beagles is eternal or perpetual truth. There are too many factors like genetics, nourishment, socialization, training, environment, and the biggest factor is human involvement. So basically it is my theory that you can take all the information that I, or anyone else give you, and flush it down the tiolet. Good luck and remember that no matter how you breed, enjoyment is the ultimate goal.

[Aubrey Holcombe]

Mr.Pine Lake,, Thanks a Bunch, for your input..

Man I been Looking for a Real good Name for one of my Best,, Line breed hounds,, and Just sent it my way!!

Yes Sir, "D.R's Theory"..

Keep Looking Up!
D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rabbit Town, USA~~~~~~~~~>>

[littlewoody]

I personally, am not big on inbreeding. I am however in favor of line breeding, maybe to a fault. I'm certainly not a big breeder nor do I want to be in fear of the lack of burial grounds. I've overlooked good studs for lesser dogs(still good though) in an attempt to "highlight" the characteristics of a particular line. It is my opinion that certain lines handle inbreeding and linebreeding better than others. The old Mt Zion Pete lines seemed to react differently than say the Fish Creek line of hounds. It seemed to me that heavy linebred Pete dogs could be very aggressive while the Fish Creek strain seemed to develop shyness and lose size. Like I say about everything concerning the breeding of beagles, noone has all the answers. What works for one person may be a total disaster for someone else.

Every breeding begins as a Hypothesis if you will. The Scientific Method can be applied(in a sense) to breeding.
1. Choose and define the phenomenon that you want to figure out and explain. (proven cross)
2. Collect information (data) about this phenomena by going where the phenomena occur and making observations. Or, try to replicate this phenomena by means of a test (breeding) under controlled conditions that eliminates interference's from environmental conditions.
3. After collecting a lot of data, look for patterns in the data. Attempt to explain these patterns by making a provisional explanation, called a hypothesis. (expose the offspring to consistent training and don't "cherry pick" for results)
4. Test the hypothesis by collecting more data to see if the hypothesis continues to show the assumed pattern.(Repeat the breeding) If the data does not support the hypothesis, it must be changed, or rejected in favor of a better one. In collecting data, one must NOT ignore data that contradicts the hypothesis in favor of only supportive data(cherry picking). If a refined hypothesis survives all attacks on it and is the best existing explanation for a particular phenomenon, it is then elevated to the status of a theory.
A theory is subject to modification and even rejection if there is overwhelming evidence that disproves it and/or supports another, better theory. Therefore, a theory is not an eternal or perpetual truth.

The last sentence says it all. Nothing in the world of breeding beagles is eternal or perpetual truth. There are too many factors like genetics, nourishment, socialization, training, environment, and the biggest factor is human involvement. So basically it is my theory that you can take all the information that I, or anyone else give you, and flush it down the tiolet. Good luck and remember that no matter how you breed, enjoyment is the ultimate goal.

After reading your college paper sounds boring and bs !

[mybeagles]

Yea sorry junies momma was a father to daughter cross.

I'm confused, does that actually make Junie an outcross.....?

I've seen several inbred dogs that produced very well when outcrosses right....takes some real patience to breed for dogs that "might" produce. More power to those that will keep a kennel full to some day produce a producer...those guys are in a category all by themselves.

What outstanding dog's come to mind as the direct result of father daughter....not referring to good dogs, we already know breeding best to best can consistently produce good dogs. I'm interested in the crosses that produce the once in a lifetime dogs?

I lean towards believing a line bred kennel of dogs where a judicial selection process is exercised, outcrosses to a top shelf hound with strong progeny is where the superstars are coming from. Kennels that are producing the producers are gaining the reputation and rightly so.....would like to see what the Axle gyps would produce outcrossed with the right male

[tom summers]

Pine Lakes it is my observation having followed this whole thread that is the most intelligent post to date. Having been based on science and factual input and not biased opinion. Well stated.
Tom Summers

[walkerdogman85]

The closer the kin, the tighter the skin?

It is all relative in WV!!!! LOL

That's a good one!!

[cris axtell/coal hill ken]

Good post Pine Lakes. Mybeagles I would like to out cross to the Big Meadows line some day then start line breeding them. The lahti's and Big Meadows lines are the two dominant lines in our area.

[lab]

I have made alot of crosses in the past some being linebred and had some great dogs out of it. we took a Reggie female we had bred to top gun dogs out there and she has thrown some nice dogs, but her last breeding we bred her to her Son. the pups turned out very good looking but could not keep a one of them because the whole litter was so shy, they would bite you if you tried to catch them. They all started running at a young age and could circle there own rabbit but good luck catching them. Mother and Father of this litter does not have a shy bone in their body. All other pups she had we did not have a shy pup. Some did not turn out as great dogs but did not see this shy trait in them. I still would not be afraid of linebreeding but I think you better know that you could end up with a litter like this and nothing to show for it.

[warddog]

I'm no breeding expert or even close but what I can say is if left up to nature, there would be no inbreeding. Males of nearly all species in the wild either run off other males when they reach breeding maturity, dominate them via strength or actually kill them. When the dominate male gets too old and or week to protect his range he is replaced. As one pointed out earlier, males commonly stray into others ranges and covet the neighbors wife or girlfriend so I would suspect that this fella is already well aware of his neighbor's range and ability to keep all the females within it to himself. I also suspect that when left to nature herself every range is full of outcrossed youngsters so as to allow the survival of the fittest. When man gets his nose into things he does nothing but interfere in the ways of mother nature. It's not nice to try to fool mother nature as she will destroy her young as a means of survival of the species. All living things have one thing in common and that is their will for the species to survive and even microorganisms will do whatever they have to do to survive not because of man but in spite of him!

[Ron Conroe]

I'm no breeding expert or even close but what I can say is if left up to nature, there would be no inbreeding. Males of nearly all species in the wild either run off other males when they reach breeding maturity, dominate them via strength or actually kill them. When the dominate male gets too old and or week to protect his range he is replaced. As one pointed out earlier, males commonly stray into others ranges and covet the neighbors wife or girlfriend so I would suspect that this fella is already well aware of his neighbor's range and ability to keep all the females within it to himself. I also suspect that when left to nature herself every range is full of outcrossed youngsters so as to allow the survival of the fittest. When man gets his nose into things he does nothing but interfere in the ways of mother nature. It's not nice to try to fool mother nature as she will destroy her young as a means of survival of the species. All living things have one thing in common and that is their will for the species to survive and even microorganisms will do whatever they have to do to survive not because of man but in spite of him!

[BCBeagles]

We all are afraid to pack up, get out of our comfort zone and go see others hounds. You may get a good beat down and then your linebreeding may end.

I am speaking to myself as well. I am always looking for something that beats the ones i am fortunate to have the way I like and I will research it first, own it second, or breed to it third.

Kennel blindness leads to lots of inbreeding. Take it or leave it but that is the case. I like what i like and will linebreed, but it may cause me to go backwards. Time will tell that, but I will not be left behind or too prideful to breed into a hound line if it can help me have a more complete dog, out crosses included!!


Good running to all!

[Alabama John]

What I have seen most successful is breeding the best you can find that suits YOUR type hunting to another dog that suits YOU best and your chances of getting pups that will suit you are the highest.

In all breedings ever how you do it out of many choices, you will have one come out outstanding in your eyes and outstanding in the particular trial format, so much so it seems it was made for that trials rule book. When it wins lots of trials, many that trial that same format folks will breed good and bad dogs to it hoping it will bring trophies to their house. Folks that trial different formats wouldn't have it and in some cases, neither would a hunter.
Who knows, it might of had 7 brothers and sisters that were culled and buried or were so so at best.
Chances are high in that case, 7 to 1 that your breeding will take after the ones culled with exactly the same blood line as the trophy winner, but that is seldom mentioned.

The more any dog is bred, even a mediocre one, the better the chance it will produce more champions but the same chance it will produce the same percent of culls too. It has been true in any performance animal, horses or dogs, the higher the stud fee and investment, the more are bred to it and even more important the more excellent time and training will go into its pups training since so much is invested.

I had rather breed to a dog that its brothers and sisters both are good dogs rather than the big name champion that had its siblings culled hard.