ARHA Hunting and Handling rule

[johns03272008]

I got the best solution of all!!! Let's just start a club and format that is just for hunting and not which dog can run a better rabbit just who the judges think hunted the hardest!! 1 win and 50 points makes the dog a champion as soon as they jump a rabbit handle them all and head to another spot to look for another rabbit and rinse and repeat!!! I will take my dogs to trials where I know we are gonna run rabbits regardless if a dog or handler jumps the rabbit they are GUNDOGS and hard to gun hunt with out running a rabbit unless you boot shoot but then why spend the money to feed a GUNDOG!!!!

[wildwinds beagles]

I understand you guys are saying about not finding rabbits but I do think bfoster is on something here. Why should a hound be placed in the winners pack without even having a track under its nose. I would say the hound under hunt and handle should at least fall below a 2 nd hound with the most score out of all cast have another chance way b4 one that doesn't even shows its ability. Jmo just because that hound hunts and comes when called don't mean it's has the ability. You might as well take a 6 month old pup to the trials and get points early do you see what I'm saying here. Any hound can hunt and handle but does it have the ability.

[begles]

understand you guys are saying about not finding rabbits but I do think bfoster is on something here. Why should a hound be placed in the winners pack without even having a track under its nose. I would say the hound under hunt and handle should at least fall below a 2 nd hound with the most score out of all cast have another chance way b4 one that doesn't even shows its ability. Jmo just because that hound hunts and comes when called don't mean it's has the ability. You might as well take a 6 month old pup to the trials and get points early do you see what I'm saying here. Any hound can hunt and handle but does it have the ability.



it is the cast they are on, no all in general. thats why they draw them out in different cast. as for comparing them to 2nd. place dogs in another cast, if they were in that cast they may have done better than the 2nd. place dog in that cast. they need to have a winner in each cast unless they all get picked up.its where their at at that time. if you are going to compair them to another cast then why not the hunt a month ago. all this is just silly.

[bfoster]

BTT

Progressive Pack US Championship

Hunting and Handling rule decides who wins a semifinal round and which hound goes to the finals... COME ON..... Boooooo

Those hounds eliminated over 80% of the competition to get to that semifinal cast. They deserved to be judged on a rabbit.... Disappointing!!!

[rabbitatfarm]

John Shelling;

If you mostly run AKC, why do you want to change the rules for LP? Run what you like.

Hunt and Handle: I watched one cast where the winning dog had 230-some points. He could flat run a rabbit. No other dog was even close in score. The down side, the judge gave the owner/handler 10 minutes to catch his dog at least twice. That hound could hunt but he sure didn't handle.

A 20 minute rule would have killed several hunts this winter. Three feet of snow, temps in the teens, rabbits running to the nearest hole if they were even out. Lots of casts were won with a strike. or lost with a non-producing. Judges don't like hunt and handle either, but they have to place all the dogs in the cast and if there's no running, how do they score?

There are lots of rules that we would all like to see changed. I don't like that a judge can disqualify your dog for running off game even if he doesn't see the game. Sets the stage for mischief. Unless the judge sees the off game, how does he know that hound isn't running a rabbit down that deer trail? Animals are like people; they take the easiest path. I have watched, with my finger on the button, my dog run a deer trail only to cut into some brush way too low for a deer go through. A rabbit ran that trail.

Leave things alone. Trials have a certain degree of luck anyway. The dog that wins the hunt is the best dog, or maybe luckiest, that day. He still has to perform better than the others under the conditions at hand.

[rabbitatfarm]

So are you saying that hunting and handling won the cast as a tie breaker in a cast that did have running? Not trying to start anything just wondering what happened.

No. H&H was awarded to casts that didn't have running. Those dogs then advanced to the winners pack and then ultimately placed higher than his one dog that got second in a running cast. I explained it, but he didn't agree with it. I've just always excepted it, but I don't like it. I would like no longer to just except it, if we can do something to improve it.

Unfortunatley unless its a rule violation, its your opinion. I dont agree with obama on alot but i get stuck with his decisions.
Case in point years ago i was at a hunt.Dog A which was mine had pretty much dissapered in thicket, she jump a rabbit. Dog B NOT HUNTING AT ALL SEEN THE RABBIT COME OUT. I was rewared strike and he a jump WTF? Life aint fair.

No one ever said life was fair. This sound more like a judge's error, unless he wasn't in a position to see your dog well. I had a couple of guys upset with the judge. Hound A and B are under a brush pile. Neither made a sound. My dog is taking a dump near by. Out comes the rabbit right by my squatting dog. He opens, judge scores him a strike. I explained that the other dogs were under the pile, but the handlers could not agree who jumped the rabbit. The score stood and my dog went on to win the cast; he added another strike and two checks. Not opening under the pile cost A or B the win. You can get pissed or laugh your ass off. Life's too short to get worked up.

[tcshy]

I am new to trailing and I agree with you on the 20 minute rule because this happened to me. First of all I got up before day light, drove 1 and a half hours one way, paid my entry fee and went hunting to a spot that didn't even have one rabbit jumped and they decided the cast winner on hunting and handling. How in the world do you decide that when all the dogs did good at this. I agree with the 20 minute rule and even better the dogs should be moved to a different hunting area for the 20 minutes should be added. Because the first cast my first dog was in there were rabbits everywhere then the next cast absolutely nothing in a different hunting area. Some of you must be thinking he won in the first class but no I didn't. Least to say I was a little chapped because I didn't know this would be the way it would go down if there were no running of a rabbit. I have come to realize that there is differences in everything some you like some you don't I guess that is trialing but I agree with you totally.

[rabbitatfarm]

Lets all pee and moan about every time we were disappointed. I drove 1-1/2 hours one way twice. The first time I got a dog picked up for off game; he never opened on a deer track in his life. Next time, he minused out after being in the lead. The pack took the track 20 seconds later. Like my baseball coach used to say: "Did you have fun? Is it more fun to win?" Maybe we should just award everyone a trophy for "participating." We're not going to get rich field trialing. Let's not lose track that it is supposed to be fun. As far as I'm concerned, any day I bring all my dogs home is a good day. A few people haven't. Do you think they sit around and complain about the scoring?

[bfoster]

Leave things alone. Trials have a certain degree of luck anyway. The dog that wins the hunt is the best dog, or maybe luckiest, that day. He still has to perform better than the others under the conditions at hand.

The best dog does not always win when it comes to hunting and handling. That's the point. The system can be improved upon and we should look into doing so.

A sport designed to judge and promote the best rabbit dog should see to it that the dogs can be judged on a rabbit. It ain't a rabbit dog with out a rabbit... it's just a dog.

[island ridge hounds]

my understanding the hunting and handling rule applies to the judge only and how hounds handle for him. how someone in the cast can handle there hound shouldn't matter. its all about the judge and the hounds. i also think that the host club of a hunt could put you in rabbits on each cast and not run the same cast every time out. i know there's days you can be looking at rabbits and the hounds can't run them, so there goes your twenty minute running time. i don't see anything wrong with the rule maybe just the way its being used.

[JUDE]

Hunting 40%
Jumping 30%
Line control 20%
Handling 10%

[rabbitatfarm]

A rule that all hounds must run a rabbit for 20 minutes will destroy our trials. It's hard enough to get six casts of opens out. Even if you have six judges, the second run will be another hour with two casts of three and then the final for another hour. Given travel, breakdowns, etc. plus if you need the 20 minutes figure a minimum of two hours for the first run, two for the second and two for the final. That's six hours just to do the opens. And in the end someone will still think the best dog, theirs, didn't win. That's what this sounds like; someone is a poor loser.

Field trials are a vanity sport; we all want our trophy, something to brag about or some validation of our kennel, i.e. "Home of FC Lucky Rabbit Jumper." We could take some direction from our dogs. They don't care if they are open or grands. They don't even care who their parents or grandparents are. They are there to run rabbits like they were bred to do. They don't care who wins and they don't sulk in their box all the way home if they lose. Maybe additional time could be added to break the tie in the final casts. But I would think after an hour and 15 minutes, a judge would have a good idea of who hunted and handled the best. Give more weight to the hunting, but what good is a dog that hunts for himself or won't come when called? No matter what you do, someone is going to think the best dog didn't win. If you lose, go home and lick your wounds and try again next time. If you only come to the trials to win, you're missing something. If you have a good dog his time will come; if he's not that great changing the rules aren't going to make him so.

[bfoster]

A rule that all hounds must run a rabbit for 20 minutes will destroy our trials. It's hard enough to get six casts of opens out. Even if you have six judges, the second run will be another hour with two casts of three and then the final for another hour. Given travel, breakdowns, etc. plus if you need the 20 minutes figure a minimum of two hours for the first run, two for the second and two for the final. That's six hours just to do the opens. And in the end someone will still think the best dog, theirs, didn't win. That's what this sounds like; someone is a poor loser.

Try reading from the start of this thred. You're repeating things already posted and responded to.

[foxxy]

the 20 min rule is only during the run off

[rabbitatfarm]

The purpose of these rule modifications is to make sure that our Hound Of The Year is not selected on Hunting and Handling and to insure that all the hounds have an equal chance to win.

I don't know how you run your HOY, but one win doesn't determine the winner. HOY is based on a total of number of points determined by placement. The more trials you enter and the more placements your dog has the better his chances. You can't win if your dog is home in the kennel. I have attended nine trials since January and none of the finals were determined by H & H. So how big a problem is this? I have not seen it in any of the trials I've attended over the years. A cast winner, yes. But not the hunt winner.

To address another point about the Executive Board judging, not all board members are certified ARHA judges.

There are some who think trials are games and have nothing to do with hunting dogs. Their criteria might be how many rabbits are bagged over a season. All this proves is someone lives in an area with a lot of rabbits and he's a pretty good shot.

I like Gene Hill's philosophy:There is no score worth keeping. All we should ever count is hours; never birds, nor length of horn or hits or misses. If we want to do something where we can't lose, then we must accept the proposition that we cannot win. We are not involved in a contest, but a very simple and pure journey that promises each day out will be different, unrepeatable, uncapturable. Each time is unique. If there is anything of value to be entered in the log, let's leave it as a series of impressions. A day without birds is a day spent in delicious solitary thought, a day that might bring you closer to the infinite mystery of it all.

I like to win as much as the next guy, but win or lose I'll be back next time. Maybe the sun will shine on my dog and he'll have his best day. Either way, we'll enjoy the day.