ARHA Hunting and Handling rule

[bfoster]

See post below

[bfoster]

5. The runoffs will be conducted by the Executive Board of the appropriate division under regular ARHA rules with one exception. The running time for each cast may be extended as necessary to insure that the hounds have a full twenty (20) minutes in each cast of actively running a rabbit. Once the judges determine that a rabbit has been produced, the timekeeping will commence on the twenty (20) minute running time. The cast will run for the full running time according to the rules of each division, but, if at the end of the normal time, hounds have not had a full twenty (20) minutes of actively running a rabbit, then the cast time will be extended as necessary. In the event of a split, the judge(s) will call a time out and stop scoring and timekeeping. He will then instruct the handlers to get all the dogs on the same track. This will probably involve having the handlers of the smallest group in the split catch their dogs and bring them to the others. Once all the hounds are back together, then scoring and timekeeping will resume. The purpose of these rule modifications is to make sure that our Hound Of The Year is not selected on Hunting and Handling and to insure that all the hounds have an equal chance to win.

I like this exception and would like to see it as the norm for all casts. Not just the Runoffs. Why hold a different standard for the runoff than you do for what got the hound to the runoff?

If our goal is to bring back the best hound from each cast then we need to insure that they are judged running a rabbit. Every new trailer I’ve ever explained Hunting and Handling to has disliked it. The common response is “So that dog wins the cast without running a rabbit. That’s Stupid”.

If we’re going to ask a new trailer to give up an entire day of running/hunting, ask him to pay an entry fee (maybe even a registration fee), and come to a trial… isn’t the least we can do is ensure his dog(s) will be judged running a rabbit.

Do you go to the woods and enjoy yourself if you don’t have any running? If I invited you to go run dogs with me, told you it would cost you $20, and then we didn’t run one single rabbit… Would you come back next weekend?

I completely understand the reasoning and purpose for hunting and handling. I also understand how difficult a request for 20 minutes per cast of running could be. But let’s set a higher standard than winning without running.

-Signed
Seeking a better tomorrow

"It is quality rather than quantity that matters." -Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[dogwhisperer]

i dont ever see that working. i have judged and seen casts that couldnt run a rabbit 20 minutes in a month let alone in a cast. if you went to a trial and your cast had good running in an hour would you want to sit at the club house all day because another cast couldnt run a rabbit for 20 minutes? I understand what your are saying but it will only work to a certain degree. i have ran trials in a blizzard they ran but not for 20 minutes straight. There are all kinds of factors you have to figure in.

[bfoster]

i dont ever see that working. i have judged and seen casts that couldnt run a rabbit 20 minutes in a month let alone in a cast. if you went to a trial and your cast had good running in an hour would you want to sit at the club house all day because another cast couldnt run a rabbit for 20 minutes? I understand what your are saying but it will only work to a certain degree. i have ran trials in a blizzard they ran but not for 20 minutes straight. There are all kinds of factors you have to figure in.

Not 20 minutes straight. 20 minutes of running a rabbit. That's anyway it comes. Be that 20 one minute runs or whatever. Maybe 10 would be a better number, but at least something.

Is that really to much to ask? If we can't at least get that, then what are we doing? Are we really judging dogs based on there ability to run a rabbit if they don't run a rabbit?

Just asking for higher standards. Higher Standards of course means things are going to be harder at times, but wouldn't the end result be better?

Maybe give points for hunting and handling if that is needed, but at least require that they run a rabbit.

[andrew_kirby]

Do you judge or manage your clubs events and provide running grounds if so hopefully you can see my perspective. Everyone would love for every cast to run rabbits but we all know that sometimes and somedays that doesnt happen. It would set the whole day back time wise which with the current state of the clubs especially with judges and judge participation puts a major slow down in the events, entire rounds would be put on hold until one cast got 20 minutes in not to mention if the cast moved areas several times to do this. How about the amount of time judges would have to give so that you can run for your 10 or 20 minutes. Id rather see a cast with no positive score not continue to the next round then have to give every cast in every round that didnt have running additional time especially when you have casts where the dogs couldnt find a rabbit if you put it in front of them. I just dont see how this would benefit everyone as a whole at a club hunt just because a cast doesnt get running. Also hunt and handling is how the dog handles and hunts for the judge not the handler this always cracks me up when I see guys running and screaming like idiots in attempt to catch there dog and then making comments on how well the dog handles for them.

[johns03272008]

My question to anyone that runs ARHA or UKC would be why would you want to go to any trial and not run a rabbit and lose!!! We don't spend countless hours with our hounds and money on food to feed them and money in gas to get to a trial and then go home cause there was no rabbit to score on!!! I have drove 4hrs to a little pack trial and we didn't jump a single rabbit do you think the best dog won that cast??? Maybe but probably not!! Hard to see any weight in a title that doesn't require any running to win!!! Just my opinion!!! I want to go to a trial and know that my dog is gonna determine whether or not I win by running a rabbit not by handling good!!

[andrew_kirby]

So what format that you run is complete in the rules and is worth your money and holds weight? I have run arha,ukc and pkc they all have flaws however, Ive never seen a dog in arha little pack gain a title without running a rabbit can you share? I have never even been/judged a hunt where the winning dog overall was determinined strictly on hunt and handle. Also if you are going to a field trial with the intentions of letting that solely determine your feelings of what you have in your kennel then your in the sport for the wrong reason.

[BCBeagles]

I would think a minimum run time be a required thing at all hunts?? handling and hunting win you the hunt?? Really?

I hunted UKC coonhound events for a long time, never won without treeing coons, don't see how a beagle should win by not running a rabbit, JMO.

I do trial one format and it is what fits my style. Not bashing, just trying to understand... I agree with a higher standard in ANY format to improve it.

[Emma's Beagles]

Very rare that you run a cast without having dogs minuse or no running at all, been on hundreds of cast and yet seen one where there wasnt one single bark

[johns03272008]

So what format that you run is complete in the rules and is worth your money and holds weight? Ive never seen a dog in arha little pack gain a title without running a rabbit can you share?

I don't believe any format is perfect with rules or scoring but I have been to a little pack hunt where the judge picked a dog that he felt was hunting better and handled better because there was no rabbits jumped or ran!!! I have also been to a hunt where 1st and 2nd was decided by a coin flip " " come on man really??? I'm not bashing little pack as I will still run in it on occasion if its close but no more 4 hr trips to one as of now!! I run AKC and I have been to some clubs where there was little to no game and walked for hours and I do mean hours to find a rabbit so the judges could score the dogs there was no hunting and handling or a coin flip to decide a place or win, again no format is perfect I was just stating what I felt needed to be changed in ARHA

[andrew_kirby]

first and second of a final cast would never be decided by a coin flip. see 6b.

XII. Breaking the Ties

A. If 2, or more, hounds are tied at the end of a cast, the tie shall be broken as follows:

1. The hound with the fewest minus points. If this does not break the tie, go to 2.

2. The hound with the most jump points. If this does not break the tie, go to 3.

3. The hound with the most check points. If this does not break the tie, go to 4.

4. The hound with the most plus strike points. If this does not break the tie, go to 5.

5. If still tied, the judge shall award 10 points for hunting and handling for the hound that in his/her judgment hunted and handled the best. The judge rating the hounds on handling and hunting shall place other hounds that are tied, under these conditions.

6. Note that the only time that a coin flip is used is to break a tie when using the Progressionary Sequence Method to place the hounds.

B. If 2 or more hounds are tied in the final cast (running for first place) and the tiebreaker rules 1 through 4 does not break the tie; the coin toss will not be used. The tied hounds shall run for 15 additional minutes. If they are still tied at the end of this time, the judge shall use hunting and handling ability to break the tie.

[johns03272008]

Well then I don't know what was going on but I know what I saw

[barnold1]

Last spring at the big hunt, I had a young dog tied at 50/50 and knocked out of advancing to the final round by the dreaded H&H rule. In that case, I'd like to see something similar to Progressive Pack: if the Progressionary Sequence Method doesn't break the tie, let them both advance to the next round and keep it objective.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

What would you rather have, I been in some tuff judging areas when dogs jump a rabbit and drive it straight to a hole. You are in a situation be in cover or hills . You missed the whole race that lasted about 30 seconds. 0 Score. As for me i will take the rule as it stands, any judge that is doing his best will give the dogs that showed he had the tools- A factor i always determined my outcome was if dog B stayed with me and hunted with purpose and dog A half azzed hunted that is no Brainer rabbits or not. To me a good judge will work dogs not let dogs work him.

[begles]

Well first off i think h&h should be changed to hunting only. Have seen many dogs come in 2nd. in their cast on handling, yes it is supoesed to be h&h but is not in many cases.Just let the judge score on hunting ability only.you go to trials to hunt not handle.And as far as changing the rule and letting hounds run their 20 min. I think it should be left alone. Somtimes you can change a rule and make it worse, i think this is the case.I can see this making for a long day because of one cast. It`s a good topic worth talking about but don`t think it will make things better. The clock is ticking. Every clubb has a limited time frame to get the hunt done. There is no Guarantee that the dogs will run a rabbit on any given day.It don`t matter if your hunting, just running or at a trial. Just asking, do we want to change the rule for ones self or for the betterment of the sport. Only my opinion and i will stick with the rules we have. David Hayden