Soloing a dog

[NorWester1]

Mybeagles wrote,

Not so much cracking under pressure as loosing faith in foolishness or pack mates

Loosing faith?? Dogs don't have religion The dog is cracking under pressure but you can call it whatever you like I guess...

Virtually every argument you present proves my point or has no relevance to the issue......not sure why you don't see it. I'm guessing this is how it went for the guys that revealed the earth wasn't flat way back when.
But whatever.....I'm not trying to convert you or convince you. You're self admittedly obsessed with individual performance and that's fine.....your preference and you enjoy it. You clearly put some thought into it and it's obvious you enjoy that and as well you should.
The only thing I would ask is, how long have you been involved with these hounds? Still haven't got what you're after yet?
Maybe that right there should be some pause for thought eh?

Mybeagles wrote,

I know you both have 1-2 stand out snow dogs, what are the other 3-4 pack mates doing when the lead dog is dominating.

Every hound I run in my adult pack is a stand out snowhound. I'm not trying to sound arrogant here but you cannot run a pack in the conditions I run with only one or two doing the work, it will fall apart faster than the temperatures have dropped this winter. I know....I've been trying for years.
But that's the secret.....they are all capable of running the hare when the opportunity arises. There is no one or two hounds that dominates all the time and I have no place in my pack for a dog that does that to be truthful.
So when one is running the front.....the others are right there to clean up any mistake made.

Is it textbook perfect....nope. But the methodology does work and although it flies in the face of some of the conventional wisdom you can commonly read about online.....success is tough to ignore.

[mybeagles]

The only thing I would ask is, how long have you been involved with these hounds? Still haven't got what you're after yet?
Maybe that right there should be some pause for thought eh?

My female will be 2 in June. I have a pup I'm starting. I suffered a devastating blow by losing my best dog running last spring.

As you know military deployments have forced me to start over 3 times in last 8 years. Maybe this has let to my obsession with getting dogs finished out quickly.

For those of you that never solo, how can you be so confident of the pro's and cons and be so sure of the effects? I pack more than I solo and have seen what I believe to be the benefits vs dangers.

Soloing has done that for me to some extent. I'm giving some consideration to letting the next generation chase terrorist through the deserts so I can focus on my kids going through high school and keep a kennel of the same dogs for more than 2-3 years but it's a tough economy for a 40 year old to look for a new job....lol

I have learned a good deal about hounds starting over every couple years but I'm ready to spend some time with the finished product. Been discredited by a few on this board for not having the field champions to hang my hat on, but I'm mature enough not to lose sleep over that.....my day will come and I think it may be more enjoyable when it does because I know what I've sacrificed to get there.

[Rabbithoundjb]

Well mybeagles thank you for your service and good luck on finding gainful employment and getting your dogs as you want them. Time with those kids is important they grow up way to fast. I remember when mine where small and now I have 3 grandkids, so I say again thanks and good luck.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Unlike bird dogs and retrievers that are usually hunted solo lets always keep in mind that hounds of all breeds have always been bred to be PACK hounds! Yes, I have seen a single hound put a bear in a tree but the normal scenario is a bear PACK.Except for the hide hunters, coonhounds are run/competed in a PACK.The oldtime northern fox hunter when trying to gun the fox often ran a single hound but foxhounds have traditionally always been PACK hounds.Deer hounds are cast in PACKS.And beagles throughout their history have always been PACK hounds.
I think the emphasis on soloing has come from those who trial and are desiring to get that hound focused and dialed in to give him every advantage.Another method to improve his skills. I also think those who want to give that young dog that might need some extra attention to be all he can be, can solo with good results.
When I first moved to Tn. some years ago I had an interesting conversation with Large Pack on Hare trialer Mike Blair from New Hampshire.Mike felt that the cottontail beaglers of the south had always focused more on the PACK and how they performed as a PACK than on individual performance.In the 19 years I've lived in TN. I've never known of or run into a gun hunter who ran a single hound.Most have a half a dozen [ or more ].
Mike felt that the northern [ hare ] trialers were more focused on having that one superior hound that could dominate and take it away from the others.I know several died-in-the-wool mid-winter hare hunters that only run a single dog or at most two when the snow is deep as more than that can be ugly.I knew several beaglers up north that only kept a single hound and he was always run solo as that was how they gunned .
I agree with Budd,Norwester and JCM. You have to know your own dogs and at what level you can bring them along and in what situations.I've been to the woods with many young hounds that belong to others and they run around [or stand around ] looking clueless because they are! I've also put 6-7 month old pups down with their older kennel mates [mother,grandmother,half sister ] and see them go all day and contribute too.Mine have not had to solo to do this.
Look at all of our field trialing formats.They ALL [except brace ] are run as a PACK.From a 5 dog Little Pack cast to a Large Pack on Hare trial with maybe 50 on the ground.
I think we all can agree that when you bring a dog to a field trial he is running against all strange pack mates and the results are often quite mixed.Often some of the dogs they are packed up with in the cast can't be trusted.This is when you really need to know what you brought to run.Is he rock solid or is he unreliable and can get jerked around?
My pack of 4 related females are always run together several times a week and year round.They intimately know each other and if I do say so they run together like a well oiled machine.To me this is the beauty of it that I could never enjoy just running a solo hound.Guys say that a hound in a pack "feeds off" the other hounds like this is a bad trait----That's what they are supposed to do!!!! That's what makes a good pack of running hounds successful is that they are all doing their job at an about equal level of ability and they know their pack mates are doing the same and will honour each other.
The job of the houndsmen is to either breed or put together the right hounds to run smoothly as a PACK.One way some do this is by "heading and tailing" their pack.They take out the overly fast or the overly slow so that they can have more consistancy in their runs.Nothing is worse than seeing some who have hounds that are a mish-mash of styles all thrown together trying to run as a group.Some faster,others slow,some track straddlers and some heads up,etc. Now I'm not saying I have that type that some claim "you can throw a blanket over them when they're running".I don't. But they all pack -up and run nice together.And YES, they ALL can run solo when the need arises.I can show you!
As far as soloing I think it's great to get out in the woods at ANY time with a hunting dog and if it makes your's better then that's great.I like to hear all mine when they're pounding!LOL.

[JJWI]

... If I have a dog that I am questioning what they are really contributing to the pack, I will pull them out by themselves and see for myself what is going on. Because it is just that dog out there, no one else jumping the rabbit, recovering the loss or keeping the chase going.

So the only way you can tell what a dog is contributing is to solo it?

Imagine if field trials were this way. I can just hear the judges. OK, handle the pack. We need to see the green collar dog run solo so we can tell what he is doing.

I think everyone should run whatever they want however they want, but I sure don't need to see a dog solo to know what it can do. And it just doesn't seem natural to have to solo a hound so he will perform better in a pack.[/quote/]

Yeah that would be pretty silly if they stopped to check a certain dog if they could run their own rabbit But if I recall, I maybe wrong, but doesn't an ARHA Progressive Pack champion have to certify by running solo for an allotted amount of time? I am not going to get in to an internet forum p#ssing match with you like I did with your buddy last year on another forum. So good day and I wish you all the best.

[John Way]

Mybeagles,
Thank you Sir for your sacrafice and service. Wish the best of luck with your family and hounds!!!!!

Norwester especially , It seems you run on snow often, or any of you other guys who run the large packs , would love to see some video of your hounds doing their stuff in some tough conditions. Not 6 inches of fresh powder , but cold , ice, deep powder. Some driving ,steady chases. If you are able, post some, most here would enjoy. I kept 12 - 16 hounds for many years. It was quite exciting when 8 - 10 hounds would lock onto a bunny. The biggest problem for me was giving them enough individual attention. Sold most 10- 15 yrs ago and now keep 4-5 Much easier. (For me ) One of the toughest challenges with so many was "who to take out". ( Especially when it got to the point where ,sunday afternoon was the only available time) Another problem with the larger pack, especially when hunting hare in tough conditions, frigid/deep snow, what a mess.( for me ) Cast 8 at 8:00 am. By 10:00 all but 2 are in the truck. Maybe sooner. Just went through the motions on those days, knowing most would be in the box quickly , if we planned to have some good steady runs. Not hare herding. It was never about just killing the hare , but good hound work was paramount. Unless you can pick the good days it never seems to pan out well for me.
Also wanted to mention some good points made about judging hounds at trials. Enjoyed. Most being pack revelent. When looking at any pack, what ever size, your looking for "individual " contribution to the pack. When u release that final pack , and they shine brightly , its a good feeling, but wait its not over. Each individual is subjet to a list of 12 positive and 14 faulty actions. Hounds are eliminated one or two at a time until a maxium of 5 are left on the ground. But wait its not over. There is still to much uncertainty to place hounds properly. Continue to run picking up one or two at a time. Well now were down to the final two, which seem to be well matched hounds. They chase a final rabbit , as the brace passes by the gallery, on occasion one of the judges will pick up a hound and let
that final individual run alone, putting on a display for all admire. "Field Trial" A short story explaining a why , even at pack trials, its extremely important to be sure your hound can solo consistantly and control a pack. Some of the formats require that a pack be reduced to a final brace ,and run until a hound shows a clear advantage.

[Swampman]

[quote="John Way"]Norwester especially , It seems you run on snow often, or any of you other guys who run the large packs , would love to see some video of your hounds doing their stuff in some tough conditions. Not 6 inches of fresh powder , but cold , ice, deep powder.quote]

John,
You have a PM.

[NorWester1]

The only thing I would ask is, how long have you been involved with these hounds? Still haven't got what you're after yet?
Maybe that right there should be some pause for thought eh?

My female will be 2 in June. I have a pup I'm starting. I suffered a devastating blow by losing my best dog running last spring.

As you know military deployments have forced me to start over 3 times in last 8 years. Maybe this has let to my obsession with getting dogs finished out quickly.

For those of you that never solo, how can you be so confident of the pro's and cons and be so sure of the effects? I pack more than I solo and have seen what I believe to be the benefits vs dangers.

Soloing has done that for me to some extent. I'm giving some consideration to letting the next generation chase terrorist through the deserts so I can focus on my kids going through high school and keep a kennel of the same dogs for more than 2-3 years but it's a tough economy for a 40 year old to look for a new job....lol

I have learned a good deal about hounds starting over every couple years but I'm ready to spend some time with the finished product. Been discredited by a few on this board for not having the field champions to hang my hat on, but I'm mature enough not to lose sleep over that.....my day will come and I think it may be more enjoyable when it does because I know what I've sacrificed to get there.

I must admit it has taken you to put it in print to remind me that maintaining any sort of program has been difficult for a number of years for you.....but it's you that has stated on numerous occassions you've not been happy or satisfied with the quality of dogs you've had contact with or kept which leads me to believe it was more than just your employment circumstances. I'm certainly not trying to smear your name or discredit you in that fashion...just stating the impression I was under. Perhaps that impression is wrong and I apologize if it is.
You had dogs before you joined the service though did you not?
Regardless, whether or not you keep field champions means nothing to me.....whether or not you feel you are successful in your approach now or have been in the past says much more.

I've had plenty of hounds that were run by themselves on a regular basis before I got them....I never saw anything to convince me it made a difference after packing them consistently.
Secondly, I'm not interested in running one dog and most certainly do not want to have to run them alone so they can function as a pack competently. I'd much rather select , keep and breed the ones that DON'T need the individual attention like JCM wrote and make those kind carry the dominant traits and characteristics in the gene pool.

[NorWester1]

John Way wrote,

Norwester especially , It seems you run on snow often, or any of you other guys who run the large packs , would love to see some video of your hounds doing their stuff in some tough conditions. Not 6 inches of fresh powder , but cold , ice, deep powder. Some driving ,steady chases. If you are able, post some, most here would enjoy

You're right, that 6 inches of fresh powder had to have been pretty easy on those 5 month old pups.
Here's a link that contains a number of clips of my dogs running in what I think most would consider slightly tougher conditions than the puppies found themselves blessed with.

https://www.youtube.com/user/NorWester66/videos

[mybeagles]

Norwester,

As you have acknowledged before it's a percentage game. I have had some very nice hounds that I was generally satisfied with that I had to let go. If I took everything you have been working towards the last 20 years and you had to start from scratch I'm certain you would have some frustrations.

It sounds like you really question the legitimacy of my kennel and training methods which is fine. I'm sure there are some that question what your doing. I'm generally satisfied with how I approach my kennel and feel my training techniques are rendering the desired results.

I sense your disgusted with my approach and methods but it's not likely to change overnight. Just keep coming, maybe I'll see the light

[Budd]

Couple mid-February hunts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C67k_uYs9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z5B4rPt6a4

[NorWester1]

Norwester,

As you have acknowledged before it's a percentage game. I have had some very nice hounds that I was generally satisfied with that I had to let go. If I took everything you have been working towards the last 20 years and you had to start from scratch I'm certain you would have some frustrations.

It sounds like you really question the legitimacy of my kennel and training methods which is fine. I'm sure there are some that question what your doing. I'm generally satisfied with how I approach my kennel and feel my training techniques are rendering the desired results.

I sense your disgusted with my approach and methods but it's not likely to change overnight. Just keep coming, maybe I'll see the light

Disgusted with your approach? Question the legitimacy of your kennel?....Dave, other than what you write, I know absolutely nothing of your dogs or kennel and other than our contact thru pm's or on the forums I don't know you enough to have a personal opinion of you.
Please don't take it personal that I question your logic or rational. I certainly don't take it personal that you question mine.
This is simply a debate.

Like I wrote previously....I have no interest in changing the way you do things or your approach....if it works for you and you're happy, enjoying it.....that's all that matters right?
You're approach is just different than mine and in my opinion in the long run, not as efficient as mine...for what I am looking for.
But again that's just my opinion and you know what they say about those

And you wouldn't have to take everything I have, and have me start over to be frustrated.....that happens enough all it's own

[deerhost]

Bud......My statement refers to just throwing a pup into an adult pack and letting it sink or swim. By what you have replied obviously that is not how your training. Your are looking at and evaluating what the pup needs. I see nothing wrong with that and not that anyone need me to condone how you are training. But also keep in mind that on this board we come from all corners of the USA. Running a pack of 6-12 hounds is just not always possible. In my neck of the woods we don't have hundreds or thousands of acres of deep woods to run hare were a car rarely goes by. Most of our running is in small 60 to 100 acre wood lots on cottontail that twist and turn and run into a hole. Running a pack of 10 is not always the way to go nor do I want to run and handle that many hounds in the field or in the kennel. I choose to run 2 to 4 dogs at most. When you are only running a few dogs I need them to be able to do there own work because there aren't 8 other dogs in the pack to pick up for there weak points. That's why for me it's important that each dog can solo and run there own rabbit. I guess it all depends on how we run and hunt. But I've never seen people get so raised and upset when the question about soloing a hound gets asked. It's comical, no other topic gets this many replies, look at how long this thread is. We simply do what works for us for the type of running we do, be it train pups in a pack or give it some solo time along with the pack work. .......dh

[jim matuszewski]

maybe on this topic we might not be giving the dogs enough credit . I have not ever run large pack on hare but I have been involved with a number of guys involved with this post. (norwester,budd,jmc,swampman) and a few other good old boys like harehound,chad,and b-man,at least once on the same day. my point is what ever you were, a guy that put merritt in soloing or running pack only, within minutes in most cases we were running a well oiled pack. heck even once up by marty's we put together a pack that ran one down.

[Budd]

Deerhost, I will agree on section size playing a part in why I run /can run such a large pack, if I want to run in my running grounds I have to keep the road plowed all winter...LOL, traffic is not a worry...LOL. Also handling is not a concern for me either, I'm sure I could take EVERY dog in my kennel at once and NEVER have to carry a leash, don't even think I have one in the truck!!! If I had to live down were my brother does in Indiana were the average section is 10 acres or less I would be running a lot smaller pack 3-4, could see myself even bracing..hope it never comes to that .
My brother Rick down in Indiana solo's his dogs to death, he has the time and patients to work a young hound that way and he seems to enjoy it, I have two of his 1 1/2 year olds here now that I will be adding to my pack in the spring when better running comes, he has put a TON of solo time into them, will be interesting.


Jim, always a good time when we all get together and yes I notice when we all get together up north our packs seem to mesh well, not sure how many we had down at Brandons but it was a pile...LOL