Soloing a dog

[mud]

This is a great topic and everyone has remained civil. that's remarkable considering how things can turn south here in a hurry. I am at times reluctant to post because I don't wont things to turn into a negative finger pointing post. I let myself get sucked into that one time and that will not happen again with me.

[Budd]

" What kind of beaglers are we if the only tool we have is to throw a pup into a pack and watch it either sink or swim"


...More to it then that...
I am sure that most experienced diehard pack hunters know that the above statement is not true and that is NOT the way to start a pup. Have I done it? YES. Was it the rite thing to do? NO. Although I did have a few that made there presents known in the pack, two of which now lead my pack.
We pack the pups with the correct hounds. When Norwester and I make a cross we keep the whole litter, most are started as a pack in our yards at a VERY young age. Some litters are never packed with older hounds until their second winter, but maybe at times we will put CERTAIN older dogs in with them.
Going into there second winter there will be certain pup that are standing out and they will be added to the older pack and evaluated, we watch them carefully and if we feel the pups are not ready we pull them and put them back into the younger pack. Some pups never make the second pack and are culled, the one's that do will either make there presence known in the pack or culled.
I only have so many tracking collars and once the younger dogs are added into the older pack then yes it is time to "sink or swim" it is up to them to earn a collar from one of the older pack members.
Now..I am not saying that EVERY dog in my pack can do it all, some lack this or that and I KNOW this but I enjoy listening to a large pack of hounds running and as long as dogs are not being disruptive in the pack they can stay in there and contribute when they can...until a better hound from the younger pack, with more or better attributes takes their place..... After all we are trying to improve are pack as a whole.
I know not everyone can keep a large kennel of hounds nor want too, and that everyone has the time too, but this is my/our choice.
I run a pack so to me it only makes sense to train as a pack and cull the dogs that can't fit my running style.
.....Is this the only way to train? Nope!!!! But neither is soloing or everyone else's methods!!!

[hard on a check]

It's not that you can't see anything in a pack, it's more about the fact you see everything when solo. Have seen numbers of dogs that were experts at "feeding" off the pack. Some were so good they could identify the lead dog and live in his back pocket. They rarely disrupt anything but are average hounds at best.

Judged a trial last winter where the hounds were all literally feeding off the dog running middle of the pack. Point being, just because a pack runs reasonably smooth with every dog barking does not mean every dog is contributing.

Just recently I have been bracing two dogs. They were packing good and driving the rabbits pretty good and appeared to be somewhat equal brace. When I pulled the female out the male could not move a track 10 feet. I'm not saying you can't identify a me too dog in a pack, but based on dogs I've run with or judged most can't. Some of you die hards like me that follow the pack through the briers taking sticks in the face eventually will. The guy who sits back and listens to the race and satisfied to pick out each hound barking doesn't have a clue.

The reason you have to settle a dog down after a trial is because there are so many dogs scattering all over barking without the line your dog can lose confidence in the pack. Rather than solo a dog after a rough trial I recomend bracing with an accurate honest mouth dog.

This has been interesting topic for me....hope nobody is taking this as a holier than thou but rather an insight into the thought process of fellow beaglers!!!

Well said.

[mybeagles]

Budd,

I can definately see the merits of doing things that way. That's a much different scenario than puting a pup right into the main pack. I would say by the second winter they are no longer a pup and should contribute by that point.

I never believed there was enough time for me to keep a whole litter but with the "puppy pack" idea a light bulb just went on in my head.....

Always liked the idea of keeping an entire litter rather than giving them to guys that let them rot in the kennel.....curious how long you wait or at what age do you start making cuts from the pup pack?

[NorWester1]

Mybeagles wrote,

It's not that you can't see anything in a pack, it's more about the fact you see everything when solo.

But here's the problem.....what you see solo is NOT representative of how the dog will run in a pack!

Once again, I don't trial, however seeing as how all trials are judged in a pack setting.....this makes what a dog does solo irrelevant. Would you approach a judge and say "I know he gets wild and rough in there at these trials....but can't you give him extra points because he is great when soloed??" Of course not, that's ridiculous. It seems to me in this instance that soloing is training tool, like previously mentioned, used to emphasize the dogs independant developement to stand out as an individual at a trial so he can win a trophy.
It would be my contention that by selecting dogs to breed that don't ever need to be soloed....wouldn't the breed be better off?

This is why if you are only ever running a pack of dogs....and wish to proliferate thru selective breeding dogs that excel in a pack setting, running a hound by itself serves absolutely no purpose at all.
All soloing would do at best is possibly give a misrepresentation of what you are breeding because it's an attempt to alter the dogs bred in behavior in a pack setting thru a training method.
It's beyond me why this is so difficult to understand

Think of it this way, if all your trials were solo, and all you ever did was run solo.....why would you ever pack your dogs?
You wouldn't as it would serve no purpose in breeding a better solo running hound. So why on earth would you think it would work the other way?

Mybeagles wrote,

The reason you have to settle a dog down after a trial is because there are so many dogs scattering all over barking without the line your dog can lose confidence in the pack. Rather than solo a dog after a rough trial I recomend bracing with an accurate honest mouth dog.

In other words the dog is cracking under pressure! Wasn't the soloing done supposed to ensure that he would be independant and ignore the other fools barking all over and just run the hare???? Clearly it doesn't work or has only very limited affects when it does.
Why not just run a pack and select the ones that don't need to be settled down but can take the pressure and still run the hare.
"Like begets like" and if you breed them you'll get more!

[mybeagles]

In other words the dog is cracking under pressure!

Not so much cracking under pressure as loosing faith in foolishness or pack mates.

What you see solo is not representative of what you see in a pack!

Can't agree with that.....solo time helps build confidence and independence to break off from dogs that are running overly rough or taking off game. Dogs that are too pack minded tend to get dragged into all the trouble areas. Dogs that can overcome the negative pack pressures end up on the bench. Dogs that go along with faulty hounds go home empty. Solo time helps me hone in on any weakness my dog has so when put in the pack she shines. All dogs have weaknesses and putting them in pack just masks it a bit. It's not like I never pack my dogs. About 60-70% of the time I'm bracing or small packing. Couldn't even find guys to run with most of the winter and to be honest, only the lead dog could smell a track in 18" of dry powdery snow which has been the dominant ground cover the past 3 months. Do you advocate running a pack when 1 dog gets 90% of the work done? I know you both have 1-2 stand out snow dogs, what are the other 3-4 pack mates doing when the lead dog is dominating.

The part you may be overlooking is the fact there are several dogs in the trials that are straight culls. Wild, disruptive, mouthy culls that just make you shake your head. If all the dogs at the trials were top quality hounds all of the above would not be necessary.

You and Budd know your packs, the dogs know their pack mates and develop a pecking order. In a trial it's all strange dogs put together and your dog has a very short window to sort it all out. Possessing the independence to act rather than react makes all the difference.

[Bigboy kennel]

I agee with JCM and NorWester1.

[Budd]

Budd,
curious how long you wait or at what age do you start making cuts from the pup pack?

That is all up to the individual pup on how he performs with his pack mates..the biggest "cull button" here is heads up swinging for the front at any cost, then once there he can't handle it, this is one trait I have never seen get better (over competitiveness) with age. Some would say solo such dog and they would be rite, the dog is not going to swing and cheat if ran by himself, but that is not my running style and even if this dog was soloed for a year once put back with the pack after awhile that trait would surface again..thats not the dog I want in my breeding program......ALTHOUGH..LOL, if that dog can run the front once there and do a nice job of it in tough condition's I will keep him around a little longer as long as he does not disrupt the pack while trying to get to the front, that does not mean that he is in the breeding program!!!

[Budd]

okay enough about packing and soloing, temperature are climbing into the double digits and I'm going out to run my pack of culls Thanks all!!

[Dago]

I agree, with everyone. Run your dogs whatever way you want or have time to. Soloing is boring and packing is overrated... Lol. It's just beagling

[JCM]

... Dogs that are too pack minded tend to get dragged into all the trouble areas.

And this is why I never solo. I want to know which dogs are too pack minded. Then I can cull them and be assured that they will never be a part of my breeding program. Sure, I might "fix" their lack of independence or other faults, but why would I want to knowing they need all that special training?

IMO the only dogs that should be bred are those that can better the breed. Dogs that require special training to mature into good rabbit hounds are not making the beagle breed stronger. Continual breeding of these dogs would lead to extremely weak-minded dogs.

Imagine if you tightly linebred dogs that need soloed. With each generation you would heighten the need for soloing and lessen the ability to perform without it. Would you really want dogs like this?

[mybeagles]

Budd,

In full agreement on that one. Over competitiveness is the worst trait going. It would be a cull in this kennel too, over competitive dogs will always be that way. They will win some trophies when the conditions are favorable but certainly won't be part of my breeding or pup purchases.

I have seen solo time improve hunt, confidence to claim a check, handling, and ability to lock on to a track.

Wife having foot surgery today so I'm envious of you guys in the woods....going to link up with a friend and pack the dogs Saturday.....hopefully my gyp knows what to do...

[mybeagles]

Imagine if you tightly linebred dogs that need soloed. With each generation you would heighten the need for soloing and lessen the ability to perform without it. Would you really want dogs like this?

I think there is a difference between a dog that needs solo time to perform and a dog that performs much better their entire life because they were given some solo time at critical developmental stages of their life. Not much danger in tightly line breeding because I don't go down that road....

We would both agree dogs that couldn't perform well without solo time is not a top shelf hound and not worth keeping. I just think even the best of the best benefit from some solo time. The idea that solo time will mask a faulty dog is to big of reach for me.....maybe the same reach you think it would be for a pack to mask a fault.

I certainly don't take a solo only approach... Just a tool

[Rabbithoundjb]

Man this topic has really took legs. I agree with JCM,I don't believe soloing a dog will make him perform better in a pack. You may find out exactly what he or she is capable of but truth is if you know anything about dogs your going to find that out in a pack as well. Trialing is different a dog is cast with dogs he doesn't run with on a regular basis so he may show well simply because he is the best dog in the cast, period. You take 4 to 6 real rabbit dogs that have been running together regularly, those dogs have had to get up on their toes to work together and to get some of the race and you stick a hound in there with them thats been mostly soloed that not used to the pace and competition those dogs are and those dogs are going to leave him little or nothing to accomplish. The only exception to that is if the dog is just an outstanding dog and if he is why solo him to begin with. IMO it comes back to the simple truth some are gonna make and some aren't. I have given young dogs away to people that where happy with them, they could kill rabbits with them but they just simply didn't measure up for me and wouldn't have wanted to breed them.

[mybeagles]

Do you guys believe you could tell the difference between a dog that's been solo'd and a dog that hadn't ?

There are dogs that win every weekend in competition that get lots of solo time. Do you believe that dogs that win and were never solo'd are naturally better dogs?