Superior Intelligence - A nice compliment for any hound!

[bunnybuster88]

retrieving rabbits, is in my opinion an example of brains to better your hunt. i usually line breed my dogs, genetics is highly unlikely since he is the only one in that line (yrs of breeding) that brings the rabbit to me. he will hide the rabbit if other beagles are to aggresive after the kill, then when there gone, brings it to me. GW, you asked if brains determine speed, NO it does not. brains will affect speed though simply by problem solving better than the average beagle. johns fence story for example, you cant teach that. that beagle problem solved when others could not, using its brain over genetics (nose). that beagle obviously remembered a way through from earlier. thats brains. you asked if brains determine hunt, NO but it will determine how well it can jump rabbits. example: i once hunted with a great jump dog. he had very little hunt, and hardly put his nose down. he did not rely on nose or hunt, he just knows where the most likely place rabbits are. he was just smart. we all agree that most beagles have enough brains and genetics to get by on, but if you think all beagles have the ability to learn the same, even with similar genetics, you havnt been out much. would we all not have retrieving, jump dogs that never gets hung in a fence if we could teach all dogs the same. some simply have more brains. now i have given 3 quick examples of how smarter hounds can better the hunt as you have requested, can you give me examples of blood or genetics without using any brains to better the hunt? BB88

[pilotknob]

The place I mostly run is open to the public for about 6 mos. of the year for running.Field trials are conducted year round.No hunting allowed.The rabbits there have been run to death and know every trick in the book.They are the worst for doubling back of any I've ever seen.They all do it like it's in their DNA.I have a old female that I use to run and train young dogs with.She is just a good old gun dog honest mouth ,tattle tale.She is also the best I've ever seen on finding the line on a double backing rabbit.She knows if the track dead ends and it's nowhere in front of her it has to be behind her.She can keep the tricky ones going.I've started and ran at least a dozen young dogs with her.Some kind of get it figured out and can finally get one straightened out given enough time but none have been able to do it quicker than her if she is with them until recently.I have a young male that was started when I got him he was running good.He didn't have a clue where the line was when it came to a dead end line.After he started running with her I started noticing he was starting to find lines behind them before she did.He's gotten better and more efficient at it than she is.Brains I don't know.But it seems like he has the ability to learn.More so than others.This same dog won't crap in his kennel he backs up to the wire and craps in the kennel next to him.Also feed him anywhere you want in his kennel,when he is done eating he'll scoot his feed bowl next to his water bucket and turn it upside down.

[Mr. Bowman]

gw you keep saying all these things are blood/genetic and not brains and ask for proof but can you give proof that its not besides just asking questions and acting like you know it all, while its obvious that brains are part of the blood and genetics in a hound as nothing in a dog is not genetic and im not talking about faults that are brought on by bad handeling, some get better genes for certain traits like mouth nose speed check ability oh and brains, dogs with more brains will pick up on how to run a bunny better far faster than one without and will usually always be the superior hound when giving the same amount of ground time and a lot of times without.I don't see why its that hard to understand that some dogs are smarter than others and because of it make for better running when rabbits pull tricks and back track or whatever. You keep asking for examples so here's one for you have you ever seen a dog that can run with blazing speed dead on a line and still make the turns dead on a line and if not still pick up that tough check before the others even though there just as fast with just as much experience if not more, that's what I would call a dog with superior intelligence yes its blood/genetics gave it the ability to do this but its also superior intelligence which is also genetic.

so to sum it up IMHO yes brains dose help a dog run a rabbit better/smoother than a dog that has average though a dog with average intelligence can still run a rabbit back to the gun imagine that lol brains are genetic so I could agree with you and say its all in the blood but its hard to believe your "superior" intelligence can not recognize intelligence and what advantage it would bring to the table.

[golden acres]

GW Here is an example of Brains. I have had dogs on fresh snow jump a rabbit and watch them use their eyes to run the track actually look ahead for the track run to it and smell it. I have had some that wouldn't look ahead to the next track and and smell all over where their are no tracks. A good snow dog need brains nose and drive. Coon dog example checking the tree I would contribute to brains. Run it to the tree check and make sure it did not (tap) meaning climb up and jump back down and go on. In the coon dog world I believe a stupid dog will false tree more than a dog with brains. I have judged many of beagles and watched dogs look over the area they are in like a open mowed field and look for a area that may hold rabbit and I have seen dogs that would hunt the whole field guess which ones were the jump dogs. My house dog which is a 14 year old feist can tell which vehicle is pulling in the drive way. She knows which door the kids are going to use when she hears the school bus, which door to go to when my wife pulls in and she know just to stay in her bed when I pull in. Some dogs learn to adapt just like humans.

[mybeagles]

I owned a beagle that remembered where other rabbits were located that he passed while running. Once you shot the rabbit the pack was running he would take off with a purpose and even whimper because he knew where another rabbit was sitting. Only one I ever seen that would do that and he did it with regularity. Smart dog!

[smokedawg]

I own a male dog right now that is 7 years old and has done exactly the same thing since he was around a year old. He is smarter than me in that it took me a couple years to figure out that he remembered where he passed a not track at. Most times when you shoot a rabbit in front of my gundogs, when they see him dead, they will jump up and try to grab the rabbit and then they will start sniffing around and hunting for another one close by. Sometimes this male will see the dead rabbit and turn around and take off straight to a hot track that was somewhere he passed earlier. My huntin partner brought it to my attention one day. If he sees the dead rabbit and hunts close with the other dogs then he dont have one stashed somewhere but when he disappears at warp speed right after a kill, he will be running another in short order. It took a while for me to be convinced but Im sure of it now. This is the only one I have ever owned that does this and he is a better than average jump dog, but nowhere near the best I have seen. He just has a good memory.

[John Way]

Great stories guys. This is the exact type of responses was looking for. Unique learned abilities the average hound doesn't display. Keep em coming. If you guys think through all your years of following these hounds, there are many examples.
Hey Adirondack Joe , I'm only an hour from you. We need to connect and run some hounds one day. Got some decent spots close to home and of course the beagle club is only minutes away. Was just down in your neighborhood doing work on Lost tree off Darlington. Got to at least bump into you for some coffee.

[David Bowers]

I have always had dogs all my life. Beagles, Coon dogs, and many other breeds. This story made me sit down and think throughout the years of things I have seen. One thing stuck out the most. I ordered a beagle several years back from Boldstroke Kennels. He sent me a dog named hunting buddy. I got the dog home and just had to go run him. I loaded him and my male dog up, and took them four miles from my house over to my in-laws to run. I let Buddy and Brownie out and they went hunting. After several hours of running it was getting dark so I went in to say hello to the in-laws. We stayed around for about an 1/2 hour or so and when we went out to load the dogs to go home Brownie was on the door steps like always waiting on me. I called Buddy but he didn’t show up. Two hours later I told the wife I would come back over later and see if I could find him. I took her and the children home. When I pulled up in my yard four miles from the spot where I was running, there sit Buddy on my front door steps. I don’t care how you look at it; genetic didn’t bring that dog home his intelligence did that. This dog had took an airplane ride that day and didn’t know me but for a few hours.
He also would stay in his pen all the time but if you went hunting you best take him because he would find you if you were close. He did this several times to me. I also had people to bring him home after he would hear a pack off in the distance running and had to go help them. Buddy was a very smart dog, not the best rabbit dog I ever had but I will never forget him.

[smokedawg]

When I was a kid we had only grade dogs and I had one old female that I had bought from a man as a 6 week old pup and she was either the mother or grandmother to darn near every hound we owned. Back then, we literally could hunt any place and the timber companies owned a lot of the spots, most were within a couple miles of my house. This old female would never climb out of the pen and escape unless you went rabbit huntin or running dogs without her. We would have to lock her up in a 2nd dog box that we had at home and leave her or she would climb out and show up where you was running dogs at. Dogs would be runnin for a little while and then you would her her familiar screaming voice join the race. Also, as long as we were running within a few miles, if the hounds didnt quit and come in and my old man had some place he had to go, he just left them there running. They would almost always be home the next moring. This old gyp though would be home in just a couple hours. You dont see that homing instict in a dog these day. The ones i own now can run a rabbit good but if you happen to leave them, they aint coming home. Of course, now days there aint near as many place to run close by and unlike my old man, I run e-collars and am not about to leave one in the woods all night. I think the yotes would get them anyway.

[gwyoung]

Bunnyblaster88, Thanks, for the civil reply. But I believe you like some others are not understanding the question, no offense intended here but I specifically asked for examples that inprove the RUNNING of the hounds or how a hound runs, This has absolutely nothing to do with a hound retrieving a rabbit, actually the hound retrieving the rabbit might be against the better running as he is slower to get back to searching as he is bringing the rabbit as others are begin a new search, or they should be. ( I have two that retrieve and generally have always had one or so in a pack, and I like it, but it has nothing to do with bettering the running ability of that hound ) you changed the better running of the hounds to " bettering the hunt" that is not the question that was posed. So it has no validity in this conversation, I think you can see that. But to address that even though it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, and this will tie in with another point of yours , is this hound actually bettering the hunt by messing with a dead rabbit while the others are searching for another one, if you think so than he is. Not only that but is their desire to find another one to run while he is carrying a dead one around more desireable and leading to a better hunt, is their inbred desire to hunt stronger than their desire to tote a dead one around? Are the rest of them to DUMB to retrieve or is it that beagles were not bred ( blood) to be retrievers ?? Once again you reference a fence , you could just as well reference a piano, a flute or anything else your hound can learn to do. It has nothing to do with his running ability once again this is what the question is ( will the hole in the fence put him back on track quicker of course it can but it has nothing to do with HOW he runs one and this is the question that most continue to miss, and to be honest with you I have never owned a hound that would not remember a hole in a fence , not only that but did you ever notice that when ran in a different area with a fence ( perhaps somewhere the hound has never been) when encountering a fence in such a situation will remember what a fence is and automatically look for a hole whether there is one or not , if he has been successful prior to this at finding holes in fences. this is not a display of great intelligence in a hound but only of average intelligence, once again all that I have encountered have enough brains to do it. As far as the hound knowing where to look when hunting without the presence of the inherited instinct to hunt ( blood) this is also a moot point isn't. You also said along the lines that I thought all hounds of similar blood had similar intelligence that I haven't been around much, I never said that but one of my detractors did and you should be saying this to him as I did, It should be clear to all by now that I am not saying that some hounds are not more intelligent than others , BUT what I am saying is all that I have ever encountered have ENOUGH to do the job, I understand some hounds are smarter than others , not the question! Do you or anyone else think that a hound that over-runs the turn by 50' while running a 9 on speed shows a lack of brains it doesn't. Do you think that a hound barking on a cold trail shows a lack of brains it doesn't. do you think a hound that runs a 2 on speed shows a lack of brains it doesn't, do you think a hound that won't hunt shows a lack of brains it doesn't , do you think a hound that runs a 10 on speed , hit and miss weaving all over the place shows a lack of brains it doesn't, Do you think a hound running over other hounds to get to the front shows a lack of brains it doesn't , the list goes on, all of these things are governed by blood and not brains, They all have enough brains to do the job, it's the blood that determines how they do it. This will do my last post on this topic I think all that have posted can find the answer in this post and therefore I wont take the time to answer individually. Think about it. One more thing I generally generate a lot of off line responses and a phone call or two this topic is no different. One guy I talked to hit on why I may be wrong, I said all dogs are smart enough to do the job and he said G.W. I don't think you understand how DUMB" some of these guys dogs are!! He may have something there. I don't know but I doubt it, I think some just don't understand blood is stronger than brains and he will run how he is bred to run, That is why we have pedigrees, Brains are not an issue not because a hound doesn't have to have them , but because they all have enough, If you dis-agree fine, my take on it after 40 years or so of running them, it is interesting that in my earlier years I thought the same as some of you did about brains, but my experience afield erased that a long time ago. If you dis-agree fine , I have no problem with that , but like all things perhaps as you spend your days afield it is something you should take a look at regardless of what I or anyone else say and come to your own conclusion, don't just watch hounds run, look at each individual thing until you get an answer, you will as I have change your mind over the years about some things . Good Running.

[golden acres]

To me their are those that could run dogs for 100 years and not know sh!t, because they are to busy arguing.

[mybeagles]

Intelligence is essential for having a complete hound. Without it you don't have much. Obviously all traits come through the blood, but it's not as simple as deciding your going to breed brilliant dogs. Every now and then a real smart one pops up and they are a pleasure to own.

[pilotknob]

Good post John,GW you're a joke.

[Swampman]

Do you or anyone else think that a hound that over-runs the turn by 50" while running a 9 on speed shows a lack of brains it doesn't.

Actually, I think that shows pretty darn good brains and/or traits!
Is that solo or in a pack of hard driving 9 on speed hounds?
I'd be impressed with a hound that runs a 9 on speed and can put the brakes on and make the turn by only running over 50", (BTW, that equates to 4' 2").
I figure since you have the propensity to knit pick every single word that everybody else writes, you are incapable of making a mistake.

Where are you from?
With the superior knowledge you proclaim to have, I would imagine that your hounds must be top notch. I for one would like to see them run in person.
How about it, you can definitely talk the talk, can your hounds walk the walk?

[New York Hillbilly]

I liked the story too! It reminded me of a couple "brainiacs" I have owned over the years. One was a real jail breaker. lol

Whether you are talking beagles or people, it's a lot more complicated than just "blood" or genetics. Prenatal care and nutrition play a role, socialization of the pups is a huge factor, nutrition and care for the pups once they are born, and giving them opportunity to experience varied situations all add to the equation. It's a mix of nature and nurture. There are those that seem to have the proverbial deck stacked against them, but still turn out to be smarter than the average beagle. I just thought I might chime in a bit even though I seldom get on the site much anymore due to lack of time. With all the talk about brains I got a little excited. hahaha After all, thats what I do for a living!

NYH