Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

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S.R.Patch
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by S.R.Patch » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:15 pm

Jim, some things can't be bought. The art of beagling is one of them.
I think your doing the correct thing for what you want. Buying & Breeding the famous field trial hounds will make you part of the fame.

I wouldn't buy a patch hound if I wanted to win field trials. They too dang ugly to take to the :dance: :biggrin:

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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by Darryl » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:37 pm

Cookie's performance that day was not the norm you see at a trial Hence the topic most dominating , she was making 90 degree turns at full speed without missing a beat, it was in a pen 100 acre big swamp, it was a pounding race for about 6 hours , with few break downs. I hunt aswell , and when judging Dan Kane told me about 10 years ago , to treat your pencil like your shotgun and it will be easy to find the winning hound.
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by BCBeagles » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:55 pm

Ain't in it for a name or fame.....simply a balanced hound. Lol

Individual performers is where I will start....titles not needed.....but qualities to possibly breed for a more complete hound are.

If I stay within the same line, name, brand or whatever you want to call it i probably will end up with decent dogs, but not the top level I strive for......some continue to do that and spinning wheels don't appeal to me.


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Pine Lakes
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by Pine Lakes » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:12 pm

S.R.Patch wrote:Jim, some things can't be bought. The art of beagling is one of them.
I think your doing the correct thing for what you want. Buying & Breeding the famous field trial hounds will make you part of the fame.

I wouldn't buy a patch hound if I wanted to win field trials. They too dang ugly to take to the :dance: :biggrin:
I don't think fame is the desire minus a few. The desire to be better is accelerated by field trials and guided by standards when it's done right. Patch, don't sell those patch hounds short because I've seen some that put bad whoopins on a pack of hare hounds.

Mark T
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by Mark T » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:23 pm

Double tap
Last edited by Mark T on Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by Mark T » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:25 pm

Darryl wrote:Cookie's performance that day was not the norm you see at a trial Hence the topic most dominating , she was making 90 degree turns at full speed without missing a beat, it was in a pen 100 acre big swamp, it was a pounding race for about 6 hours , with few break downs. I hunt aswell , and when judging Dan Kane told me about 10 years ago , to treat your pencil like your shotgun and it will be easy to find the winning hound.
Amen Daryl. I too started judging with Dan. To the naysayers of the performance, you have to see it to understand it. I have judged many times at York, Oshawa, Grand River, Kuyahoora and Mohawk, in my opinion some of the best grounds ever. The rabbit (hare) coast along, 50-75yrds ahead of the pack. These swamps are their territory and the hare is an amazing animal. Cool, damp swamps are the perfect place for them, very rarely do they get caught. Maybe if there are faulty hounds, cutting or running a path. I have witnessed some unreal runs. One in particular was at Oshawa. It is a fenced grounds, not sure how big, maybe 75acres. I judged the first time up there with my friend Ed Donegan. IFC Threejays Jacks Cleo put on a show, another time I judged with Harry Snow. That bitch was named FTC (finished that day) Threejays Jacks Magie. Harry bought her right after that. Both runs were just as Daryl described. Flat pounding for maybe 4hrs. I remember the day Magie won there was 22 entries and we never picked a dog up. The rabbit made several turns, but I don't recall a breakdown, say nothing of a loss. When we called the trial it was a perfect line of 22 bitches nose to tail, they placed themselves. This is apples and oranges to what the majority on this board have seen and compete in and even run on the weekends. Totally different grounds totally different game. What is the same is some of the pedigrees. The desire to pursue to catch is the same no matter what the game or conditions. When I go to Maine hunting most of the time that is how they run. It is not uncommon to have runs last 3,4 even 5 hrs. To those of you that say those type of dogs can't be hunted with I say BS! Could you pick one right up and dump them on a tiny cottontail bouncing side to side and expect them to handle it...hell no. You have to get them adjusted to the different conditions. Some adjust well others not so well. Nascar doesn't run the same setup in Talladega as it does at Watkins Glen, they adjust it. Same car, adjusted. I could name a dozen or more hounds that have won in a similar fashion. Harry and I judged FTC Awful Bawlin Let er Rip to the win that finished him. I think it was at York, he was incredible. The next week I judged him he was one of the worst hounds I had ever seen. Figure that out! I put a win on a bitch off Mtn Man, Swampghost Tiger Lily I think was her name. She was incredible. Armandos Levi, Brankos Sweet Magnolia, Threejays Jacks Trouble, Smokey, Pepper, Lady Justice etc. I could go on and on. Incredible runs in the best conditions in North America for running hare. Don't say it can't happen if you have never been there.

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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by Shady Grove Beagles » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:49 pm

Amen Mark!!
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by WELLS WOODS » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:51 pm

I went to the AKC Large Pack Nationals one year in Wisconsin. I've never seen beagles run so hard and long without having a breakdown. FC Branko's One Tuff Hombre won that trial. After 5 hours of nonstop pounding he was still pulling at the leash ready for more. I also judged up there once. It is definitely a different world running large pack on hare than small pack on cottontail. It is so much more physically demanding for a hound to run this hard that athletic conformation, a strong heart & lungs & just plain crazy desire are traits a hound must have to compete. They must also be sound mentally to be able to concentrate on the line with all of the pack pressure around them. We run our hounds hard in the Mid-West, but nothing like this. I have seen some hounds do good in both, but like Mark said it just takes time for them to adjust to the different way a cottontail runs. John Dewyse & Bob King have had great success with hounds that could adjust quickly and win both types of trials. I see a lot of similar bred hounds do well in both large pack & AKC Mid-West. Of course Branko bred hounds have proven their versatility. Then there's Pacesetter, Sock It To Me, Shooter, Paycheck, Schnapps, Striker, Shaker, Birch Lake, Mountain Man, Ninja, East Coast Trimmer, Jigs, etc. These large pack FC bloodlines have really been a tremendous influence on our Mid-West trials.
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S.R.Patch
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by S.R.Patch » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:05 pm

I've ran hare for a few years now. A leveret might give you a race like a cottontail but to an adult hare a hundred acres ain't nothing. I never seen 22 hounds nose to tail (gave me a chuckle at the thought). I agree whole-heartedly, the hare will test a hounds conformation, desire or weight of heart, a redfox race would be the best comparison. How many hare in one of these pens? imho more than two would be to many for 22 hounds unless they're putting no real pressure on the hare.
I understand brando raises his hounds in these 100 acre pens, i can see why they do well.
I will give you my humble opinion and it's worth nothing, If your running hare trapped in a 100 acre pen for 5 hrs with quality hounds, your hounds are changing hare or are not putting real pressure on the hare. Maybe the 22 hounds in single file should give a clue, that's almost unbelievable to me.

Excuse me, Hounds are barking, puppies have made a jail break, gotta go! :dance:

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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by WELLS WOODS » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:35 pm

In my humble opinion & it ain't worth much, but judging from the patch hounds I've seen, single file isn't in their vocabulary. I hope you have been able to breed the overcompetitiveness out of your line.
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by Casey Harner » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:53 pm

WELLS WOODS wrote:In my humble opinion & it ain't worth much, but judging from the patch hounds I've seen, single file isn't in their vocabulary. I hope you have been able to breed the overcompetitiveness out of your line.

Mr. Wells

Have you ever seen a line that never produced a over competitive dog in the Midwest trials??
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by WELLS WOODS » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:52 pm

No I haven't, but I have never seen a patch hound that wasn't overcompetitive other than a few Dave Cluckey ran in Mi. I'm not saying the right breeder couldn't fix this problem over time, but that's the reputation they got in the Mid-West & if a line can get a rep like that as hard and fast as the Mid-West hounds run , they must be way over the mark of acceptable.
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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by Ron Conroe » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:08 pm

That's why they are called patch hounds, they hit a patch of line here and there. Lol

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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by Mark T » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:15 pm

S.R.Patch wrote:I've ran hare for a few years now. A leveret might give you a race like a cottontail but to an adult hare a hundred acres ain't nothing. I never seen 22 hounds nose to tail (gave me a chuckle at the thought). I agree whole-heartedly, the hare will test a hounds conformation, desire or weight of heart, a redfox race would be the best comparison. How many hare in one of these pens? imho more than two would be to many for 22 hounds unless they're putting no real pressure on the hare.
I understand brando raises his hounds in these 100 acre pens, i can see why they do well.
I will give you my humble opinion and it's worth nothing, If your running hare trapped in a 100 acre pen for 5 hrs with quality hounds, your hounds are changing hare or are not putting real pressure on the hare. Maybe the 22 hounds in single file should give a clue, that's almost unbelievable to me.

Excuse me, Hounds are barking, puppies have made a jail break, gotta go! :dance:

Well, sir, I'm glad you got a chuckle. Have you ever seen 22 hounds down at the same time?? I didn't say it happens all the time, as a matter of fact, that is the only time I can remember it happening quite like that. But in about 15-20 trials I have judged up there the running was that good more often than not. I never said the stayed on the same rabbit, how the hell can you tell? Sandy Creek BC has 2, 100+acre running pens, and very seldom does the rabbit cover more than 25-30acres. And they are no where near the type of grounds as Oshawa or York. But judging by your comments you know this and have been to several of them over the years. Mark Trudell

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Re: Most dominating performance you have witnessed??

Post by S.R.Patch » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:23 am

When I was in England we ran that number of hounds. One day we'd take dogs and the next we'd take bitches. Both the Clinkard and the North Bucks kept about 50 hound each. I saw the North Bucks dogs run down hare in less than an hour, man they could fly.
I guess the most hounds we put down is when we run hare on Drummond, there were three groups of us running together, 12 -15 hounds.
I've only ran hare up around Park Falls Wis. and the UP of Mich. I'm not trying to dispute you guys, only trying to understand what your saying vrs, what I've seen and experienced.
Are you running rabbits or hare in the pens? Out my back window I got 50 acres of pasture, a hare would use all of it easily being ran. Now I seen the young hare run similar to cottontails, but I hear these pens are stocked and a hare moved from his home range will run wide and loooong, kinda like a traveling jack.
You can tell if your on the same hare by how he runs. They will weave and circle a reasonable distance hoping to throw hounds off to their brothers back, if the heat stays on, they lift off to the far end of their range. The more and longer you run them, the more they repeat trying to put hounds on another hare. If your hounds keep to their hare, he will make big loops and begin to tire if the pressure stay constant. They say a fading hare begins to loose his scent the longer it's ran, older experienced hounds recognize this weariness and weakening of the scent and take it as a sign that a kill is close and they move up in the pack to pursue with blood in their intentions. I assume a hare will stiffen up just like a rabbit, We've only caught a couple and i think it was at a check when hounds were casting and the hare bolted into one of the hounds mouth. I've personally never seen one stiffen like a cottontail.
WELLS WOODS wrote:In my humble opinion & it ain't worth much, but judging from the patch hounds I've seen, single file isn't in their vocabulary. I hope you have been able to breed the overcompetitiveness out of your line.


Ha Ha, Greg, I hope to never breed hounds that run single file or choo-choo style. Anyone that realizes that scent is in the molecular state riding the moisture in the air knows the vapor widens from the tailpipe and is lain on the wind, greenery and the footprint. Only the lack of moisture forces hounds that take advantage of body or high scent to drop their heads and grub out the footprints. This narrows and bunches the pack and slows them down.
Mike Yates and Mike Claybaugh liked the cottontail style patch hounds. I got my first from Mike and bred them to Donhs Buckeye Patch, he was Yates and ole Stupe blood. Ole Stupe put the hunt and drive into his puppies, Yates added tighter check work and line control. This blending of the related blood has been a good mix for a sensible all round hound in my book, I can run them on cottontail, hare or swampers.
I sent a bitch out to Oklahoma and she won one of them midwest derby trials, Yates ran the in early spo trials and had success, some have won little pack and ours are even related to Cluckley and Peacock's AKC trial hounds. Selection and standard are all you need once you've got a volume of related blood to choose from.
Imho, desire is only desire until it becomes disruptive to the pack or following the line, then it becomes over competitiveness. To be honest, I've seen far more of it in fieldtrials than i ever have in hunting rabbits with fellow hunters. But field trials are out to better the breed... :oops:
You guy keep smiling as we banter back and forth, this is just good fun...We all have to be happy with what we feed... ;)

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