Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[Hare Chaser]

My Beagles,

First off let me say thanks for keeping your comments civil and objective. The name calling stuff really doesn't do anyone any good. Out of the pics. you posted I prefer dogs built like the one shown in your 3rd picture. I live in country where it is not uncommon to be hunting in 14 plus inches of snow from December through March. The dogs that are up on legs, have a narrower chest width and well proportioned chest depth have a much easier time getting through the snow. They tend to slide through it as opposed to pushing through it. The wider chested, short legged hounds don't fair as well at the end of an all day hunt in deep snow.

Another thing I don't think has been mentioned which I think goes along with the conformation is the coat and feet. I want coarse haired and thick coated dogs in my country and I want their feet to be tight like a cats with plenty of hair between the toes. Winter conditions will eat up a dogs feet and legs quickly on the fine haired dogs. When a dogs feet and legs get beat up in less than ideal snow conditions it can take weeks for them to heal up.

The dog in the #2 pic. looks nice but I would be skeptical in my area as he looks on the shorter side and maybe a touch wider than I prefer. He looks like possibly under a year old?? If so, by the time he hits 5-6 years old my guess is he will widen out even more.

Thanks again for your input, sharing your views and pictures.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

You don't like those females pictured from the Borderline Club or the one's Pine Lakes showed as being representative of Mid-West hounds?? That's exactly how I want my beagles to look.
It was mentioned that the U.B.G.F. hounds have better conformation than the Mid-West or Large Pack hounds do.Really???? I would have to take great exception to that.I lived in New Hampshire most of my life before moving south to Tennessee 19 years ago.I was acustomed to beagles that were up on legs,deep chested [not wide chested ] for lung capacity and all day endurance,long bodied as opposed to short coupled to get through deep snow much easier and an over all appearence of total athletic ability.
Here in middle and east Tn. the only A.K.C. trials are U.B.G.F. clubs and I've had the opportunity to watch half a dozen of their trials and many of them run on the same state management areas that I use.
This is probably a generalization but I have seen many,I repeat many,of these beagles that are what I would call bench legged,dome or apple heads with short muzzles, others with what some call"chuckle "heads that are big and square and look too large for the dog with ears that look more appropriate for a coonhound,wide chests that give them the appearence of being too broad or chunky and their rear running gear the appearence of being much smaller than their front half.
Just look at the pics of the winning dogs in Better Beaglings results and then look at the pics and stud ads in Hounds and Hunting.Don't know about you but it's easy for me to pick out the more athletic dogs bred for all day afield.
Ever look at pics of A.K.C. show beagles?They look like they're carved out of blocks of wood.All square and chisled.Check out what the show people have done to most all the hunting breeds ie Setters,Pointers,Brittanys,Cockers,Labs or Golden Retrievers. They barely resemble the breed that guys with shotguns take to the field. Show me an A.K.C. Black&Tan coonhound that actually is used for treeing game.A.K.C. show people have done the same thing with most of the "working" dogs too.So be carefull when you advocate that we should be strictly following A.K.C.'s breed standard.I think that we as hunters,trialers,pleasure runners that are using the breed for what it was developed for are actually closer to breeding the "right kind" of beagle than the show dog folks with their 10 generations of non hunting hounds will ever be.
As always JMHO.

[mybeagles]

Shady Grove,

My point involves adherence to the AKC conformation standards not what I think is right or wrong. If I lived in hare country I would have beagles very similar to those pictured in the Borderline results. For those that have never attended a large pack trial on hare.... It's worth the price of admission. I will also agree the heavier boned boxier style dogs are definately more conservative on average but I suspect it has more to do with what's been bred in or out of them. I have seen some square heavy bones dogs that were fast and some up on legs sleek looking dogs that were really slow.

[WELLS WOODS]

My beagles, it is only your opinion that the Mid-West & large pack dogs are getting farther away from the AKC standard; it is my opinion that they are closer than they have ever been. Again, show us a current Mid-West FC & point out his flaws. The Borderline picture shows some well built hounds that resemble what the standard is describing in my opinion.
I'm sure your dog #1 is a fine companion, but do you realize his ears are set on top of his head & his hind legs look to be turned out?.

[Smoke'n Mack]

Isn't the point of a "conformation standard" being set, which was done way back when, was to remove anyone's opinion? This isn't an opinion either way. When someone says "that dog has good conformation", they are referring to the AKC standard, which isn't an opinion, is it? It has nothing to do with how fast, slow, or whatever else, it's a standard.

I have a few dogs that have long narrow snouts, ears a little short, bite a little off, body a little long, tail a little short, with awesome running gear that can pound a rabbit day after day. They can hunt how i want and perform how I want, doesn't mean they conform to the AKC standard of looks though. It's not my opinon either, they don't, they've been judged at an AKC AAQ.

And I'm not taking sides with anyone on this post, just what I thought the words conformation and standard meant.

[WELLS WOODS]

Well, it is someone's opinion of how they interpret the AKC standard. Some put so much emphasis on certain areas they forget about other parts like athleticism & the look of a miniature Foxhound built for endurance & strength. Remember, the AKC standard was describing how a hunting hound should look & be put together. The same was true about the AKC rulebook. This was simply put & easy to understand in my opinion, but some used this book to base the brace"walkie talkie" beagles & field trials on that showed no purpose for hunting. They put too much emphasis on certain areas & forgot about parts of the rulebook like "with the intent to overtake their game" & "accomplishment over style". Just because the brace & conservative SPO beaglers tried to set in stone their "opinion" of the AKC rulebook, doesn't make it right. And the same goes for the AKC Standard, just because the "show" people try to enforce their "opinion" of it, it doesn't make them right either.
The most important goal of the AKC rulebook & conformation Standard should be to improve the beagle breed as a hunting hound in my opinion.

[mybeagles]

I'm sure your dog #1 is a fine companion, but do you realize his ears are set on top of his head & his hind legs look to be turned out?.

Greg,

The legs are canted out from leaping over her pack mates that get in her way. The ears are high set from me loading her in the box by the ears.....I'm sure she has more conformation flaws which goes along with what I'm saying. Here she is at 15 months old......

[WELLS WOODS]

I'm sorry about pointing that out, but posting a picture of a field trial photo & saying their heads & ears were too small wasn't very nice either. I really like the looks of the 2nd place bitch. Noone will ever have a perfect running or looking hound according to the AKC standard & that's okay. I think we should strive for it though & I think the Mid-West beaglers are on the right track & you think the UBGF more so. That's why we live in the USA. Best of luck with your hounds.

[S.R.Patch]

Correct conformation is freedom of movement, the rest is window dressing formed to a fashion as we all can see differences in type that all perform the function(running a rabbit) well. The AKC standard was written to standardize the breed in looks and size as a guide as to what generalities performed the function best garnered from those with long experience.
This guide/standard keeps the beagle looking like a beagle. Some breeds disqualify an animal for having the wrong color or markings.
There's a old saying "form follows function", As hounds get slower the form is allowable to deteriorate as drive and endurance is not tested or required in those trials. As hounds get faster, it is reasonable that the form should take on more of a coursing type hound as speed and catching are more emphasized. We have seen many formats and trials start and evolve, each believing there's is correct and whats best. Over time, they all change and evolve as to what the judges select and favor. Trials being an incomplete test of a rabbit hound for the hunter, this is where the damage is done and each faction seems to gravitate to the extreme whether it be conservative or progressive, universally the trial breeders breed for what the judges select to win.
Judges will select what your future beagles look an run like in the trials...jmho

[WELLS WOODS]

The goal is to have field trials that reward the best hounds suited for hunting. That's why the Mid-West was started in the first place. We shoot over the hounds to test for gun shyness. The success of the Mid-West always has & always will rely on good judges that understand that the AKC rulebook was put in place to improve the quality of beagles as a hunting hound. We believe there is a method of running a rabbit that will produce the best results time & time again, but we should never let method or style override accomplishment to the point that our hounds lose qualities desired by the hunter. Our trials also test the endurance of a hound & a free moving, athletic hound will only benefit from this type of conformation. That's why in my opinion, Mid-West FC's over the years have become an overall better hound.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

Conformation,,is ,,Opinion.

There are breed standards,,I have Run hounds out of show kennels ,,A Kennel that Produced hounds that won big A K C,,,Shows,,very good Conformation .

When I run Them what I saw was a Square Built Hound with Broad Chest And Blocky Head,,

Not build To run on these abandoned Surface Mines with very thick Briars and Steep Hills,,

So when I said ,that Hound Has good Conformation ,it is some what different ,to AKC Standards,but as Close as ,I could get and have A Hound that could Run in The Area I Hunted.
I Personally always used New City Cruser,as kind of A guide Line .And John, would tell you his self he could find weak spots in his conformation.

And The Midwest Hounds ,are vey lacking in Conformation ,if you Judge Them under AKC Breed Standards,,,

And yes ,I Have had some Training in Judging Conformation.

I would suggest breeders concentrate on Breeding some HUNT INTO THESE HOUNDS ,their conformation is better than their HUNT.

[WELLS WOODS]

Gosh dang , I've got two Democrats on both sides of me that know everything... I give up.

[bigdogpace]

WHO DIED AND SAID AKC HAS IT RIGHT THAT STANDARD CAME OVER ON THE MAYFLOWER A DOG BUILT TO THE AKC STANDARD WONT MAKE IT DAY N AND DAY OUT TO SHORT COUPLED EARS R TO FAR FORWARD ON HEAD AND SEVERAL OTHER THINGS I C WRONG WITH THE STANDARD U CAN LIVE N THE PAST IF U WANT TO DONT MAKE IT RIGHT I BELIEVE GREG HAS IT RIGHT NOW THATS MY CALL U RUN EVER WHAT KIND U WANT TO THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS . BUT DONT DOWN MINE IF I THINK AND KNOW IN MY RUNNIN GROUNDS IVE GOT IT RIGHT.WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG, LOL

[bigdogpace]

WHO DIED AND SAID AKC HAS IT RIGHT THAT STANDARD CAME OVER ON THE MAYFLOWER A DOG BUILT TO THE AKC STANDARD WONT MAKE IT DAY N AND DAY OUT TO SHORT COUPLED EARS R TO FAR FORWARD ON HEAD AND SEVERAL OTHER THINGS I C WRONG WITH THE STANDARD U CAN LIVE N THE PAST IF U WANT TO DONT MAKE IT RIGHT I BELIEVE GREG HAS IT RIGHT NOW THATS MY CALL U RUN EVER WHAT KIND U WANT TO THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS . BUT DONT DOWN MINE IF I THINK AND KNOW IN MY RUNNIN GROUNDS IVE GOT IT RIGHT.WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG, LOL

[WELLS WOODS]

It's hard to breed for looks & talent; it takes years to see results no matter what direction you are going. I've seen improvements over the years for what Mid-West beaglers are trying to do; breed for better looks without sacrificing field ability; that's all I meant.