A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
bigdogpace wrote:WHO DIED AND SAID AKC HAS IT RIGHT THAT STANDARD CAME OVER ON THE MAYFLOWER A DOG BUILT TO THE AKC STANDARD WONT MAKE IT DAY N AND DAY OUT TO SHORT COUPLED EARS R TO FAR FORWARD ON HEAD AND SEVERAL OTHER THINGS I C WRONG WITH THE STANDARD U CAN LIVE N THE PAST IF U WANT TO DONT MAKE IT RIGHT I BELIEVE GREG HAS IT RIGHT NOW THATS MY CALL U RUN EVER WHAT KIND U WANT TO THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS . BUT DONT DOWN MINE IF I THINK AND KNOW IN MY RUNNIN GROUNDS IVE GOT IT RIGHT.WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG, LOL
I suspect that "Look like a miniature Fox Hound" came from England as well. A long legged dog works great in open land with few briers and honeysuckle where there are big circles by rabbits and hare. But in big brier patches and thick honeysuckle long legs are a liability.
The term "look of a miniature fox hound" has nothing to do with size; it's describing proper structure. You can have a 12" beagle that has the "miniature foxhound" athletic build.
Wells Woods Kennel Greg Wells
R.I.P. FC Brent's Prime Time FC Wells' Silver Spring FCGD Wells Woods Valentine
Conformation, and the passed down myths that go along with it! First off conformation does not dictate" foot". ( I don't need to be reminded of what happens in two feet of snow, I have been there enough) so speaking in general, Conformation has nothing to do with foot, so your hound looks like a whippet and can run 27 miles and hour and mine can only run 24 miles and hour, big deal, both can still out run their nose, so I don't care what their top end is, it doesn't matter! Their blood will control their speed NOT their conformation. Oh, what about holding up all day, what about that myth, Well if you haven't seen a crooked legged , cow hocked, swayed backed, hound pound all day long you, just haven't been around much. Most will have conformation enough to do the job and the ones that have better conformation well that is just fine, and a little extra to look at, but most will have enough. For any to think that their dogs are not holding up all day because of conformation, I suggest you look at another possible cause, old wives tales notwithstanding. Now with that, I personally wouldn't own most hounds that I see as mid- west hounds because I don't like the overly long backs, and slab sides along with short ribs and extra loin length. That is how they appear to me. I like a hound that sticks closer to the AKC standard. And yes the AKC does set the standard, if you don't like that , it is fine with me , but none can claim to have a better product conformation wise, because YOU don't set THE standard, now you can set YOUR standard and that again is fine with me, but it is not the official Beagle standard It is once again your standard, when you or I become bigger than AKC then perhaps all will take notice! I can assure you that beagles that match the akc standard pretty closely do have the conformation to purse the quarry all the way to hell and back, what they are missing is not conformation! Since the main ingredient in all day pursuit is not great conformation I say breed them however you like them but mine are not going to hold up better than yours or have more foot because they have better conformation than yours and vise-versa! Why I try to stay close to the standard , I would be fooling myself to believe that THE standard will not produce a hound that can run quicker than his nose, or that could run daylight to dark or as I like to run them dark to daylight! Breed them as you please! So is conformation getting better in mid-west hounds I couldn't say I don't know how bad they were in the past!
The AKC Standard names one breed to describe the build & conformation that resembles perfection for a beagle; the foxhound. So if a beagle's running gear doesn't resemble a foxhounds, how is it closer to the AKC standard? The standard is trying to promote the most athletic hound possible in my opinion. I have nothing against the AKC Standard; I just disagree with how some people & even some "show" experts have interpreted parts of it. No one said that conformation had anything to do with running style or ability. Conformation is not important at all without ability first; hunt, desire, nose & brains. That's why I would never breed to a beagle just to improve conformation without it being proven in the field first.
I think most of us agree on most of this, but we are trying really hard not to for some reason.
Last edited by WELLS WOODS on Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wells Woods Kennel Greg Wells
R.I.P. FC Brent's Prime Time FC Wells' Silver Spring FCGD Wells Woods Valentine
,I think that the foxhound resemblance is correct, but it is just a RESEMBLANCE, AKC goes on to describe the beagle in detail for a reason. But just to look at the AKC Foxhound standard it is not one of splayed feet, long loins, flat ribs, etc. You are not correct when you say no-one has said anything about conformation versus style and ability. Many, many, have said that conformation has something to do with style and ability, it has been said for YEARS, Maybe not on this thread and I did not say that it was, actually I said the opposite, that is why I spoke of MYTHS and WIVES Tales. I hope you didn't think those myths and wives tales were just generated on this thread by their definition they are of long standing, I think most understand that about Myths at least! I tried to help those that may not understand that by saying PASSED DOWN MYTHS, I do think someone said something about it creating " foot" though, on this thread it may have been you. I don't know and am not going to go back and look at this point, but perhaps that is not what you meant, or maybe I read it wrong. Now, just so as we don't turn conformation into confrontation everyone has their opinions of what something means, if you think most mid-west hounds look like AKC breed standard foxhounds , fine with me,, If you think that AKC show beagles do not that is fine with me, if in your opinion mid-west hounds have better conformation than any others on average fine with me, now what is there to argue about, nothing, I just think you missed the part about Myths and passed down wives tales, that I was addressing, no harm. And as far as my description as to what I see in mid-west hound conformation, that is simply what I see , right or wrong I still get to see it, personally wouldn't breed it, just my opinion thank you for respecting it. good running to you!
Last edited by gwyoung on Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In my opinion if you compare the conformation of the dogs at beagle trials to dogs at any other breed trial (shoot to retrieve, nite hunts, ect.) the beagle is light years behind and I mean light years. In my opinion that is due to so many different styles of beagles and those styles bringing different opinions on how the dogs should be made, as you can see from all the post on this thread. At the end of the day the breed standard says that they should look like a miniature fox hound and very few do, including dogs in the show ring. If we all made hounds that where made like a miniature version of the hound that pine lakes posted and had the proper respiratory system they would have the stamina and maneuverability to run anywhere, anytime, for however long, guaranteed. One last note, my hounds do not have satisfactory conformation by any means and I will be the first to admit it.
Kenny Lain
Little Indian Creek Kennels
AKC & NKC Beagles
This is cracking me up! Everyone needs to realize that noone has perfected it. The show beagle of today IS NOT THE STANDARD if we are talking about the AKC standard. They are just as guilty as any of the breeders of the hunting lines. If you are going by your own standards then you aren't contributing to the topic of conversation which is the conformation of Mid-West hounds. Mid-West hounds compete in AKC field events therefore subjecting them to AKC standards. You can argue until you turn blue, but the AKC standard states that they are to look like a miniature foxhound. Don't take my word for it and read it yourselves. I quoted it in an earlier post if you care to scroll back.
Anyone that doesn't think conformation has anything to due with the ability to run and/or endurance is sadly mistaken. Poor conformation can prevent performance just as the lack of nose, brains, or desire. I think "Mid-West" hounds is an incorrect description. Hounds that run in the Mid-West is probably a more accurate statement. Of the lines that are competing in Mid-West trials, very few if any are from the areas holding these trials. 98% or more are northern bred dogs(harehounds). In my observations, the dogs run in the MHHA, Mid-West, Southern Large Pack, Canadian LP, and Eastern LP are of the same blood and conformation. Some are as close to the standard as any, and some are not. One thing is for sure, they are a darn sight closer than the UBGF dogs and Bracehounds. Unless you have one of those breeds or show bred hounds, yours' more than likely have similar conformation to these dogs being ran in Mid-West trials.
Look at the above hound , this is very typical of my hounds , ( he is a couple of pounds heavy here) he is neither a ubgf or brace bred hound and he doesn't look like the majority of Mid-west hounds nor carry the blood of mid west hounds that I have seen either, for those who incorrectly think hounds have to be one or the other. Also I grew up hearing about how a hound has to have good conformation to run a rabbit all day and do it again tomorrow , like some others I believed it also. But after years of seeing hounds with crooked legs, swaybacks, cow hocks, crooked bites, rat tails, etc: ( these are all conformation flaws ) run as long and as hard as anything out there I had to admit that those ole boys packing those poor conformation hounds around were going to run as long as mine or anyone elses. So I don't put their hounds down on those grounds as do some who think those hounds can't do it! Now for those who have never seen it then you have simply never seen it that is all, I understand your opinion. I simply disagree and have stated why, but I would guess that most have seen poor conformation run as long and hard as anything. Remember just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and just because something is repeated often doesn't make it so. Just my opinion as some others have expressed a different one. As I say let the reader decide.
Last edited by gwyoung on Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I agree with you gw. One of the hardest going dogs I have ever owned was the worst made dog I have ever owned but I cant help but wonder what he could have done had he been made to run LOL.
Kenny Lain
Little Indian Creek Kennels
AKC & NKC Beagles
no FC Champion here ! But you can kill a lot of rabbits over her. She has done well in her few trails. Field Trails are fun but rabbit hunting is where its at.
RUN'em & GUN"EM BOYS
Paul Moore http://www.moorebeagles.com
Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box
mooredog, very nice looking hound, closer to the breed standard than what most of us run, she definitely is packing some show blood. You want to be careful about adding to much though as she won't be able to walk across the kitchen floor without taking a rest. LOL.
Good looking hound; Very similar to Mid- West ; the only difference I see is that our hounds are longer bodied & have a longer muzzle. Show people like a shorter coupled, more compact hound for some reason. I think Mid-West hounds have come as close as they can without giving up foot speed. The long, athletic spine is here to stay.
Last edited by WELLS WOODS on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wells Woods Kennel Greg Wells
R.I.P. FC Brent's Prime Time FC Wells' Silver Spring FCGD Wells Woods Valentine
