Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[gwyoung]

Einstein, Show me where I even hinted that the groups of gundogs outside of mid-west has proper structure like you say, another line of your B.S. Guys like yourself should lend your expertise to AKC you are obviously far ahead of them on how a hound should be built, one of these days you are going to be bigger than AKC I can see it now, if they only knew a small amount of what you know!! Paint your ass into a corner and try to wiggle out! same as you did when you DECLARED that in your 43 years no gundog has did well in show and field FOUND out how darn WRONG you were and then ran UBGF hounds down by saying they couldn't be counted only YOUR style of hound could be counted, who is running the other man's dog down now, that's right YOU! As far as me putting mid-west hounds down, I openly state that I don't like those that I am familiar with, if you don't like that too bad cry to someone else! I get to choose whether I like something or not, Someone is going to have to do an incident report because you got your feelings hurt? I don't doubt for a minute that as you say you can't comprehend my line of thought , probably the only statement you have made thus far that makes any sense and one of the few statements to where you are not going to have to try to wiggle out of, because I am sure you are darn right on that one! One other thing you have neglected to answer is the working beagle standard you spoke so highly of, who's working standard did you say it was, was it yours , surely when you speak of beagles not measuring up to the working beagle standard you are not talking about dogs Nationally not living up to YOUR working beagle standard, you are surely not that egotistical are you there must be a printed working dog standard and I am not saying there isn't simply direct me to it, and thanks for that

[chris83]

Where does the calico ears and blue eyes fit into all of this ?

[WELLS WOODS]

Easy fellas..

[gwyoung]

I guess the blue eyes would be in the working dog standard!!! AKC doesn't know crap about eye color or conformation, just ask anyone with a beagle with poor conformation or blue eyes!

[WELLS WOODS]

Take a look at Blue Banks Moon Pie; it's amazing how a cross could work so well to produce at least 3 in the litter that I saw with that type of talent & looks!; Pie, Grace & George. I saw how they gracefully moved in the field & they could run a rabbit like it was on a string & could run them down at times after the rabbit had had enough if it didn't hole; they pushed a rabbit hard & it rarely had time to pull any tricks. This type of dog is rare & to this day this is my standard. I've probably only seen 25 or 30 Mid-West FC's in 20 years of judging that could compare pretty well with them. I estimate that that's only about 5 % of the hounds I've judged. I've personally only owned 4 or 5 that were good enough to win in the Mid-West since I started in 1992.
You see a lot of pictures of male stud dogs, but some of the best looking & running FC's were females that we never get to see after they are through competing. Hopefully,these great bitches are being bred to stud hounds of the same quality. I feel blessed to have been able to judge & see these great hounds run. There's a lot more talent out there with so many more breeders trying to get that special hound than there were 30 years ago. This is the style of hound I like ; fast & aggressive, but not faulty or rough. It takes a lot of brains, nose & desire to be able to put constant pressure on a rabbit, but there are dogs that can do it & they are the dogs that need recognized & used for the future. The Mid-West judges are doing a fine job of promoting the best in my opinion. A dog is going to have to win & place under 10 to 20 different judges before it can become a Field Champion. And again, these dogs that win or place high in a Mid-West trial are put to the test physically & conformation is an important factor. If a dog isn't built good enough to handle the stress, it won't make it.
The Mid-West FC's are evolving into a hound with more athletic conformation in my opinion. Why would this be a bad thing?
I respect others opinions about style & conformation & anyone that commits part of their life to hounds is allright in my book whether we agree on every aspect or not. I'm not kennel blind; I've seen too many great hounds from different bloodlines through the years.

[mooredog]

people ask "Paul why don't you field trail more " ???? enough said !!! Have " FUN " I will just rabbit Hunt no Drama here !!! LOL !!

[WELLS WOODS]

It's good to have fun, but if we are going to hold a competition field trial, we need to do it right. 90 % of beaglers I've dealt with at trials have shown good sportsmanship win or lose through the years, but there are some that get stressed in competition & it's just not for them. They should just hunt & enjoy their hounds that way. Some of the most passionate beaglers I know don't hardly ever go to a trial. Hounds are made at home, not at the trials. Trial success should just be a little icing on the cake.

[gwyoung]

Hell mooredog, if we trialed we could get in on the cheating no good Del Morgan/ ARHA crooks thread! ( not saying it is or isn't deserved) For all who may take this the wrong way, I do seem to sense that some have been caught cheating and not believing all cheaters are caught leads me to believe the numbers are greater than what are called out. Who would have thought that some may be bragging about titles they cheated for, in any format, I know I wouldn't have, I guess I am just gullible!

[WELLS WOODS]

It would be hard to cheat in the AKC Mid-West. Clubs know if they don't get respectable, honest judges, people will not come. One club got that reputation about 15 years ago & continued to show bad judgment & their entries dropped almost 70% within 2 years. Judges make your trial; from what I've seen in the Mid-West & the judges that are being used, the hounds will be judged fairly.
Like I said, trialing isn't for everyone, but I don't understand the ill feelings toward beaglers that do like to trial their hounds.

[Buckeye Bob]

It's good to have fun, but if we are going to hold a competition field trial, we need to do it right. 90 % of beaglers I've dealt with at trials have shown good sportsmanship win or lose through the years, but there are some that get stressed in competition & it's just not for them. They should just hunt & enjoy their hounds that way. Some of the most passionate beaglers I know don't hardly ever go to a trial. Hounds are made at home, not at the trials. Trial success should just be a little icing on the cake.

I can tip my hat to that. I just kinda ran into a few too many 10%ers in the last trials I was at. Hope someday to have the time to take in some Mid-West trials as well as UBGF.

[gwyoung]

wells woods I am on record as saying trailing doesn't make one any less knowledgeable than anyone else and if you research my posts you will see that I go to trials to see what kind of hound is being run, that field trials are a good measure of a hound, and that field trial results are a good place to start ones search for a good stud. Look it up, it is there! The ill -will I do see from non-trailers toward trailers is due to the trialers thinking no one is worth a crap or that they don't know anything if they haven't got a field champion or a bunch of ribbons to flaunt around , I am sure some are not too far away from pinning their dogs ribbons on their own chests and heading over to macdonalds. I suggest the field trailers deflate their egos somewhat and the non-trailers which outnumber them 1000 to one and make up the majority of beagle owners in this country and account for most of the hound knowledge and are in fact the grasss roots of beagling will then start regarding them a little differently, in short police your own ranks, no one wants a ribbon that they wouldn't own shoved in their face as if their hound could not have earned it. In short police your ranks , field trailers do have a very egotistical superior attitude, want proof, hell I just had to laugh one to scorn on this thread , he definitely thought his ribbons made him someone, he went on to mention all of them, no crap he mentioned them all pathetic huh, How sad that one needs to try to convince himself in such a manner, it only re-enforces a bad opinion of trialers. Now I know all trialers don't go around spouting off about ribbons most wouldn't want, but the ones that do cause the ill-will you spoke of, it doesn't take many ! Your problem is not non-trailers it is TRIALERS! Ever think about looking at it from the other side?

[WELLS WOODS]

I don't see anything wrong with guys being proud of their hounds. Why would that offend you?

[pilotknob]

The Mid-West isn't immune to buddy judging.I saw a 15 in. male get picked up in Berea for being afraid of a horse.He got out of the way when a judge ran up to him and skidded it to a stop.He wasn't leaving anything for the rest of the cast,the only problem was they left him down to long and everyone but the man who won knew it.He most likely knew it too but he still made a FC that day.It wasn't my dog either.

[gwyoung]

Proud of your hounds no problem there, If you can't see the difference in one being proud of their hounds, and one listing all of the trial titles that hounds they have even BOUGHT have won and then asking a non-trailer what has he accomplished , as being an egotistical, superior feeling of a TRIALER type question then you really don't want to know the answer to your question. I am sure the man I spoke of is your buddy, but hell I thought perhaps you may be above buddy judging in pursuit of an honest answer. Side anyway you want on that , but remember more than you and I are watching.

[WELLS WOODS]

Nothing is going to be perfect as long as humans are involved, but if you have a hound good enough to win, he will eventually get what he deserves in the Mid-West. Ask the judges everytime in a respectable way what they thought of your dog & why he was picked up. You can't judge an entire 30 year old organization on one or two trial experiences. Most people don't know that it took Prime Time 6 trials before he got his first place in the Mid-West. I knew he ran well & I did get frustrated at times, but I knew he would get his due. His first place was in Michigan under the well respected judge, John Quigley. He told me he was fantastic & could have won, but he got separated from the pack on another rabbit once & lost some score. He still placed 2nd. Next trial, I thought he won hands down & everyone else did , but placed 2nd. That's part of trialing. There's a lot of disappointment even when trialing a FC quality hound. That fall, he got another 2nd at Southern West Virginia behind Syris MaGee ; that was a well judged trial. Then he won Wurtland, South Ky & River Valley (AR). Whoops , there I go bragging about my dog; hope I didn't offend anyone.
I was wore out by the time he finished; running nearly everyday between trials & traveling all over the country. It was fun, but a lot of work. It's hard sometimes to not be proud of your hounds accomplishments. I don't think they are trying to down grade anyone else; it's just another annoying part of human nature.