Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[gwyoung]

I think it was very clear to both of us what your buddy was TRYING to do, we will leave it there! And whether they are TRYING to downgrade anyone or not that is still what they are doing. When you " downgrade" others does it really matter if you are trying to or not? for the record most like myself believe they are trying. The problem stills lies at the feet of the trailer , if you don't want that answer fine you will never solve anything by ignoring it, and just so you won't wear yourself out you won't solve anything by accepting it either, it is not in your control. But at least you may understand the real root of the problem, and not blame the non-trailer for ill will that he may dish out in deserving portions!

[WELLS WOODS]

All I know for you to do it get over it & move on. I've never met the guy; just talked to him on the computer. I know he has had some good hounds. He may be an azzhole, but seems like a nice guy to me & loves the sport of beagling.

[gwyoung]

Get over it? been over it bud, never bothered me to start with as I said earlier got a good laugh out of it . you asked a question I gave an example you apparently didn't like! maybe you should only ask questions that you know will get answers that side with your opinion if they are going to jack you out of shape! Try that! And I am sorry for calling him your buddy if you say he isn't ,I could see how that would upset someone!

[sbeagler]

http://espomagazine.com/board/viewforum.php?f=1 here's a link to the sister site also of BEV'S some of you might enjoy i know a few of these guys and are friends with some though our dogs are some what different even share extra rabbits with them and helped do collars at their trials as a favor. we have antis after us so we have to stick together and maintain friendly respect- to each man his own to enjoy.

[WELLS WOODS]

Why so angry? Be happy.

[Moore Beagles]

[Moore Beagles]

Conformation; To conform to a Standard, and that Standard is The AKC Standard the way a Beagle should look. I heard it mentioned Earlier that Judges simply judge a Stacked Posed Beagle, which is so far from the Truth its Ridiculous. The Big ol over done Show Dogs may be great for a photo op, or an Attention grabber, but that's not whats winning in the show ring on a consistent basis. Its the proper movement in the ring.
No Bench show or Conformation show should be complete without the Judge seeing each Dog move.
I personally haven't seen much or any improvement in the Conformation of Hounds in The Midwest. The most improvement I've seen has been in the AKC SPO UGBF/NEBGF Gun dog formats or Frankly The UKC formats.
Not all Show Dog lines are the same, we have gone thru a couple that were Blocky & Clumsy, and were not Athletic. Most of these were Adult dogs that were never allowed to run prior to us owning them. So I can understand the Stigma for some that Think Show Dogs can't Motor...we have had others that used lil or no mouth....None of these lasted long at our Kennel. But what if You seen a Show line that was Athletic, Glided when they moved, Graceful, Effortless movement and found out that they wanted a Rabbit just as Bad or more than your best bred Field Dogs, and You raised as a Total Dog to hunt & Show...?.
A Show line that Started The very Moment of the sighting of their 1st Rabbit! Not Possible? then You don't know What you don't Know.....
[imp]https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 8289_n.jpg[/img]

[gwyoung]

Me angry, you have got to be kidding, I really don't think you know how much I enjoy dispelling myths and outlandish ideas like the longer the dog the faster he runs, You will never fully realize just how much I have enjoyed the humor of this thread. I have no ill will toward you or anyone else, some seem to get riled up when their contradictions are pointed out though. ( not you on that) Don't ever be worried about me being angry , it won't happen. straight talk use to be the norm if you don't sugar coat it any more one must be angry, don't know when that first started, but please don't take the time to put any sugar on mine! Good luck to you .

[randy hicks]

those are some nice looking hounds.

[Moore Beagles]

Thanks Randy

for those that think a Full show dog can't run a rabbit, heres a clip for ya. Shes stretching a couple FC's on this one, she gave as well as She took.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=76 ... 0053770445

[gwyoung]

I assume your hound is the rare exception as far as being able to move quickly without getting all tangled up and falling down, Yes sir you must have a rare hound there. You ever see any other show hounds that could walk maybe 10 to 15' feet without hurting themselves, I might be interested in a rare find like that! LOL.

[WELLS WOODS]

The first thing I see wrong with those hounds is the lack of scratched ears, muzzle & tip of their tails or any war scars from doing it's job day after day.

[Beagle Huntsman]

I would like to make some additional comments regarding some of the things different people have said, if I may…

Someone mentioned that shows have destroyed hunting dog breeds, which is true. Some examples are Irish Setters and American Cocker Spaniels. But trials also can destroy. For example, try taking a pack of Walker field trial foxhounds out of an enclosure and see if you can break them off deer and you’ll be in for quite an ordeal. Try hunting a field trial pointer without a horse and see if you can keep him in sight. And of course we all know what field trials did to the brace beagle over about a 30 year span. Anytime the competitive event (show or field trial) becomes more important to people than maintaining the integrity or original purpose of a breed, that breed is subject to changes that can be very destructive. We have to guard against that.

As for Dual Champion Shadrack, Perky took an average looking UBGF field champion and then used his knowledge of the show game to work the system a bit to create a dual champion with the dog. He did some research and found shows with very few entries, then took some of his own hounds that he knew Shadrack could beat and entered them, creating wins leading to the show championship. So, he really was not beating usual show competition, and everything was perfectly legal, but maybe not done the way most of us would like to finish a dual champion.

There was mention of field trialers who don’t hunt, and you can find non-hunters in every Association, although I would expect the Midwest has a higher percentage of hunters than most. I did a lot of judging licensed SPO trials in the 80s and 90s and used to make a habit of asking the other judge about his hunting, just to see how many actually did. Some did little if any actual gun hunting. At one big Jessamine County trial in the early 90s, the club members, including Mr. New, came to me before the event and asked me to pay special attention to searching ability because they already knew the other judge (a famous person from out of state) would not. And they were right about that, he preferred to sit on his horse and talk to the gallery, but he was very good once the rabbit was up.

Conformation certainly does add speed. Hounds with good conformation move so effortlessly that it is easy for them to be faster. Many of the how beagles I have seen through the years were too fast for good field work. I shake my head when I read some of you saying they “cannot walk across a room”. Ever been to a show?

Tom Dornin once told me to try walking across a room with bowed legs. It is harder, and people with bowed legs often need knee replacement surgery later in life whereas those with a more normal stride can go on and on. Beagles are the same way. We have all seen hounds with bad conformation still able to hunt well, but they will break down eventually. This is exactly why I am so interested in conformation in my hounds, so they can still be running hard at 9, 10, even 12 years of age. That keeps old hounds hunting, and in place to help the youngsters on the tough checks. To someone only interested in field trials, this may not be important, since the hounds normally don’t trial at advanced ages. Conformation is measured in YEARS, not hours, days or weeks.

Photos can be deceiving. I can take an average hound and make him look very good with the right photo. Not long ago, I visited a nice looking hound on the General Services page thinking I might like to breed from him, but when I saw his very crooked front legs that I could not see in the photos, I thought better to try something elsewhere. Beware of side photos. They are better than nothing, of course, but may not tell the whole story.

To really judge a hound’s conformation, we need to see them move, as Moore has already stated, particularly over rough ground to see length of stride, indicating good shoulders. I had a female sired by Ch. Shaw’s Spirit of the Chase who could move so well it amazed me to watch her. She seemed to glide over the ground as if her feet did not touch it. The good movers do that.

It was mentioned that it is rare to see a show person with any field trial success. This is true, since most show people could care less about field work, and vice versa. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Mandy Bobbitt, whose Bedlam Beagles compete successfully in the pack field trials and her pack contains show winners and champions. I remember Mandy bringing some of her show hounds to Jessamine County field trials in the early 80s and how amazed we were at their hunting ability. They were entirely show bloodlines, but hunted well, but that was 30 years and many hound generations ago.
Regarding the arched loin….A little arch is OK and probably beneficial. Think of a hound’s back like a bridge. Too long and it is weakened, but too short and the lungs and other organs are cramped, plus there is not length enough for feet to keep from interference with each other. A big arch often tends to lead to a back that runs off toward the tail, but what you really want is an upstanding strong rear built for endurance over the long haul. Contrast that with the arched loin of a whippet, bred for short, fast dashes, but not endurance.

When you run your hands down a hound’s back, you should be feeling muscle along each side of the spine. It is not good to feel bone sticking up.

Someone told me once that a proper length of back for a hound would be one in which a man’s hand would fit in the space between the last rib and the beginning of the rear leg. Much more space than that and you start to weaken the bridge. For front legs, same thing…a man’s hand should fit between the front legs without much extra space. Hounds that are too wide in front tend to lose speed.

Some of the show hounds today are definitely too short in body. I have always thought this is one reason why the show breeders have so many C-sections compared to field breeders. But a big big problem in the field hounds is so many are too long. The correct hound, bred to the Standard, will be somewhere in between. You can find hounds, both show and field, who are just right in length.

I had a show champion a few years ago who could have lasted in the field as long as any field hound, and longer than most, IF he had the MINDSET to do so. When I bought him, he was 3 or 4 years old and had never been hunted. I remember saying to the breeder that this dog would be hard to fault on the bench, and the fellow said if you can find a fault show it to me. I watched that dog for months before finally deciding his feet could have been a little better! I took him out with my other hounds and he was bad about running deer, with very little mouth, so after losing him once this way, I decided to end his field career. But he was an example of what is really wrong with our show beagles…..it’s not conformation, but instead it is the mental side. After so many years without being tested in the field, so much of the ability to hunt properly has been lost. It is easy to breed for conformation because you can see it, but you cannot see inside the mind of a hound to see if desire, grit, and toughness is there. And most show breeders don’t care about that anyway.

I don’t care for the foxhound pictured on Page 4 as an example for beagles. If you want to see really nice WORKING foxhounds, next Memorial Day Sunday go to the Virginia Foxhound Show at Morven Park in Leesburg, VA. There you will see hundreds of foxhounds representing the mounted packs from all over the U.S. and Canada. Every time we go, I come away inspired to breed for better conformation. I believe these hounds, especially the English and Crossbreds, are closer to what the people who wrote our Standard had in mind. The American Walker type of foxhound over time has gotten very racy looking, and not much like a beagle at all. Keep in mind the Standard was written over 100 years ago, so you would have to look at the foxhounds of that time to see what they referenced.

Someone else stated that other breeds are so much better in combining conformation and field work, and thus producing dual champions. This is true. I believe German Shorthairs are a good example. It’s a shame that we spend our time arguing about the Standard, or pointing out faults and why we would never use show blood (or field) instead of developing events that would encourage people to create hounds with everything on board….the total beagle. Shame on us for not doing this.

This has been an interesting discussion. Hopefully educational. Any discussion related to the all-important issue of conformation is a good thing.

[Little Indian Creek]

That may be the best post I have ever seen on any forum.

[nhharris78]

X2 That was a good read.