Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[bigdogpace]

WELL GREG I HAVE TO LOOK AT THEM AS MUCH AS I RUN THEM SO I LIKE A WELL BUILT GOOD LOOKING HOUND NOT SAYING ALL MINE R LIKE THAT THEY R NOT BUT I DO TRY TO BRED FOR IT NOT JUST FOR LOOKS BUT FOR THE WAY THEY WILL PERFORM IN THE FIELD . THE BEST DOG I EVER OWNED WAS TO UGLY TO BREED TO SO I NEVER DID . OLD PEARL IS A NICE LOOKING HOUND TO ME BUILT RIGHT NEVER SAW HER OFFER TO GET TIRED OR WASNT READY TO GO THE NEXT DAY ALL THAT COMES FROM CORRECT CONFORMATION THANK U FOR LETTING ME HAVE HER.

[WELLS WOODS]

Thanks Beagle Huntsman for the names of the people that truly founded the Mid-West. I mentioned a few more that have been important through the years in the success of the Mid-West or their respective clubs. The Mid-West has tried several times to bring back shows to accompany our trials with little to no interest. Hounds today with poor conformation are uncommon & I think the early shows were more important to improving conformation than they would be today.
Bigdogpace, glad you like Pearl; keep' em running!

[mybeagles]

Conformation entails more than straight legs. Many of the competition hounds I've observed have long bodies, short ears, snipe noses and very narrow heads. Based strictly on the AKC standards the UBGF hounds have far better conformation than the Midwest dogs. No idea what the conformation was in the 1980's but In my opinion it's hit or miss these days. Seen some with beautiful conformation but it is by no means across the board.

[WELLS WOODS]

Name some short eared , snipe nosed narrowheaded FC's in the Mid-West & some of the UBGF champions with top conformation.

[mybeagles]

Huckleberry hound was brutally crooked, Indian Hills Night train had extremely splayed front legs. Many of the Turbo dogs are known to have 1/2 ear. I'm not going on a tyraide to criticize a grocery list of Field Champions that had poor conformation. It doesn't take anything away from there accomplishments, but I don't agree that the Midwest is making any improvements in conformation.

I don't know the names of many of the UBGF champions but in judging some trials Ive noticed a huge difference. C & S Buckshot Cuttin Up, Narrons Cadilac Jack, and Mike Mannings Cowboy dog are big name champions that could compete in show ring.

Sundown kennels have some show quality dogs that run in UBGF and UKC hunts.

I would argue many of the field trial dogs are so far from conformation standards they look like a different breed. Guys I've talked to often breed to a "good looking" stud dog but have never read the conformation standards and don't know for sure what it states.

I would be curious what John New and some of the old timers would say about the change over the years. Just a general observation of the trial results in better Beagling seems pretty revealing about what direction it's heading.

[WELLS WOODS]

That was a very poor backup post for your original bold statement. Naming only 2 that ran 10 yrs. ago & Nighttrain's front end might not have been perfect, but he was one of the most athletic little males I've ever seen. Name one FC in the last five years in the Mid-West that has poor conformation. You cant! If we were to breed our hounds built to the "show" standard, they wouldn't have enough foot speed to stay in sight of a Mid-West pack. These hounds today are built better & have a better head & ear than I have ever seen in the Mid-West; example's: Toney Eyer's FC's, Jeff Martin's FC's, Denny Dugan FC's, Don Hoog's FC's, FC Mt. St. Blue Bud, Top Fuel Chester, Dago Valley Bullet, Wango Tango, Ky Lucky, Pinnacle Hill Sport, FC Durham's Lily, Scott Music's FC's, ETC.
All of these hounds are built straight with excellent running gear & beautiful houndy heads. If you think a beagle hound should be short & stubby with ears down to the ground or try to meet a artificial standard that puts limits to their athletic ability, you will only set your bloodline back from where it could be.

[mybeagles]

All of these hounds are built straight with excellent running gear & beautiful houndy heads. If you think a beagle hound should be short & stubby with ears down to the ground or try to meet a artificial standard that puts limits to their athletic ability, you will only set your bloodline back from where it could be.

It has nothing to do with what I think.....it's about what the AKC conformation standard states. Have you ever even read it? It's not an artificial standard, it's the official standard. It sounds to me like you have an established standard in your mind about what a hound with speed will look like and there is some truth to what your saying, but don't mistake it for the AKC breed standard. I won't be able to list any FC hounds that don't meet your standard but rest assured there are many that fall far short of the show standard.

I'm sure you would love me to provoke every owner of a Field Champion but that's not going to happen. They are FIELD champions not show champions. They are deserving of the titles they earned. I agree that some are really good looking hounds but that doesn't mean we are improving their conformation. I've talked with many who prefer a longer bodied hound because they believe they will be faster. That may be true but would be a disqualifying show trait. Gray hounds have incredible speed and I would argue the fast beagles today are closer to resembling one of them than the AKC breed standard. I will also agree that a hound that closely adheres to the breed standard would not keep up with today's Midwest hound. To that end the Midwest breeders have done a good job of modifying the conformation to match the style they are looking for.

To be more precise....what conformation traits do you think have improved?

[WELLS WOODS]

So you are saying we should breed for the AKC SHOW standard even if it decreases a hounds ability in the field & makes it slower of foot? When I say the Mid-West hounds' conformation is improving, I am not talking about any standards other than an athletic , straight built hound up on it's toes with a nice houndy looking head with plenty of ear, skull & muzzle. Mid-West breeders aren't looking at a book when they breed, they want a hound that can get through the woods with strength & stamina.

[WELLS WOODS]

I don't know how our Mid-West FC hounds stack up to show standards & I doubt that you do either. If so, maybe you can tell us where we went wrong.

[mybeagles]

Lol....if you don't know must be nobody does.

Amazing that you would applaud the efforts of the Midwest breeders for some brownie points and don't have a clue what your talking about. They look good to you so must be getting better.

If you read what I posted you will see I stated the Midwest breeders are doing a good job breeding hounds with conformation that matches the desired style. Didn't say they were wrong just different.

Gaze through the large pack results and you will see dogs that resemble gray hounds even closer as they desire more and more speed.

The coyote hunters have bred the fox hound into a dog that resembles a whippet. Them dogs darn near fly. Again, not wrong just very different.

[WELLS WOODS]

You are the one saying our hounds aren't improving; tell us why.
I'm just stating the obvious that our hounds are improving in looks & conformation , not by a show standard, but a hunter & trialer's standards. You're just an azzhole hater in my opinion.

[mybeagles]

The over emphasis on speed has resulted in dogs that struggle to keep a rabbit moving for over 2-3 minutes without major break downs. Everyone blames the other guy for having the "rough dogs". When scenting conditions are optimal everyone goes wild when they drive a line for 10 solid minutes.

There are some truly great hounds in the Midwest amongst the piles of rough junk and to that end I guess a dog is even better if it can perform amongst the fools. On average are the dogs better today that 15-20 years ago...no way, not in my opinion.

With the drastically shrinking entries there does seem to be agreement about what a Midwest hound should look like but not so sure that's not the result of forcing the closer running dogs out of the picture.

Name calling won't add anything, just strengthen your case for the improved conformation you speak of. What are you basing that on?

[WELLS WOODS]

la la blah, blah, are you talking?? la,la.la

[mybeagles]

Lol....that's what I thought

[Beagle Huntsman]

Wells: When you start downplaying the importance of the AKC Beagle Standard for Conformation, you start to lose credibility in my book. I would encourage you to get a copy and study it. It was written over 100 years ago by some of the top field beaglers of the day, and every part of it relates to making a hound perform better in the field.

I have always considered it a great shame on beagling that we were not able to produce hounds capable of winning in show and/or field (dual champions), and still be good under the gun or in a private pack also. We almost did it in the 1920s and 30s. At that time, the beagle clubs had a spring show and a fall trial, and there were several dual champions made. But then someone invented the Derby Trial for the springtime, and clubs began holding multiple trials each year, and at the same time the show faction split off. Since that time, the breed has essentially become two different hounds. Such a darn shame when we almost had it all...

In the 1970s and early 80s, we could still find show beagles with enough hunting instinct to produce worthy field hounds. That's why John New could breed to a show champion and produce a field champion (FC. New City Cruiser). It was the OLD show lines we were using. I would think the chances of doing that today...30 years later...are nearly impossible. But you can find a few people who have carried those old show lines into today's hounds, and they could be used to improve conformation.

BASED ON THE PHOTOS in the magazines, I would agree with mybeagles that the UBGF trial hounds are generally better in conformation that what you find in LPH or Midwest. Now, I have not had first hand observation, and individual hounds would challenge that theory, but overall, I believe the UBGF hounds would have the edge. I would suggest their emphasis on holding shows with the trials has had some impact on the UBGF hounds overall. The early Midwest leaders understood the value of top conformation in a hunting hound and designed a system of events whereby runoff qualifying trials also required a show, but sadly this has not been continued by the Association.

I do not believe many of the show beagles of today are athletic enough to run hard, as you have suggested. Some are. But it has nothing to do with the Standard. The Standard is fine. The show beaglers just need to get back to breeding hounds like we had 50 years ago. Get an old book and look up Ch. Thornridge Wrinkles, or Ch. Do-Mor Director, Ch. Kings Creek Triple Threat, or Ch. Altopa Atom, and you will see what I mean. Hounds in those days were more althletic looking than today's show beagles. Just like the brace breeders, the show breeders got away from that to some degree. Just like the brace breeders, it had nothing to do with the standard they were using.

We have a great Conformation Standard. It's a disservice to the breed to run it down.