Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[mdbeagler]

Beagle Huntsman I have really enjoyed reading all your post. At times the big males have been way too rough will agree. But I have been to serval trials in past few years where the judges have done there job and the big males putting on a show in the winners pack catching 3-5 rabbits before the trial is over almost running check free. I would hate to think 15 dogs couldn't catch a rabbit and run check free with that many hounds on the ground the game doesn't have a chance

Exactly what I was thinking, if I run 15 to 18 dogs on a rabbit I don't think the rabbit has much of a chance.
If they couldn't catch the rabbit after pursing it for 45 minutes or more, I would be looking for different dogs.
Some of the pens up North are bigger than a lot of the hunting grounds that are hunted every season by many.
I like a good looking dog with good conformation, but ability comes over a pretty dog any day in my book.
I don't think hunters years ago that were using their beagles to feed their family were thinking of a pretty show dog.
It is clear that these pretty show dogs are not hunted hard at least not where conditions are tough.
I have run dogs in the Midwest were it was just open fields, no briars at all.
I have been to trials and run with guys that refused to run their pretty show bred dogs, due to the thick briars
we have here in Maryland.
They were too concerned with the briars cutting up their pretty hounds, and them not looking good for the bench.
The show dogs that have been pictured in this post were too pretty to be hard hunters, not a scratch on them.
More emphasis is placed on looks then actual ability.
To each his own!

[outrider66]

Regarding the two hour runs.... I was out at dawn this morning with a 15 hound pack. 8 males and 7 females. Running was excellent, up until it got too hot. They ran one big rabbit for 45 minutes all over a big weedy creek bottom and in and out of a pine plantation. I stood up on the hillside and listened to the Saturday morning concert. They didn't have a check of more than 5 seconds the whole time and they were driving hard. Finally they caught him. My big female Madcap brought me the head, but the pack got the rest. I have never had a 2 hour run on the same rabbit. I keep a watch clipped to my belt so I can see how long each run lasts. More than an hour and the rabbit needs to find a hole or bad things are likely to happen. At the end of the day, the pack gets a grade, and time of the runs plays into that.

I Have had my dogs solo big running spring time buck rabbits for alot longer than 2hrs with no reason for me to think he or she switched bunnies!
i would imagine other guys can say this also

[WELLS WOODS]

Well, BH, when I said upper UBGF, I didn't realize you could walk along with them as I have never been to one. Sounds like they have things twisted & broke beyond repair. Anyway, I should have said a "more conservative type hound" was ran in the early Mid-West. I agree when I started judging in '94 , there were more rough dogs than usual due to more speed coming in. But there were some good , smooth runners there too & I've never left a field trial disappointed in the talent of the final 8-12 hounds. If you can get the few rough dogs out that are causing the problems, you'll be surprised how the others will fall in on the checks & run the right way. We've got the best teacher for our judges in beagling, the AKC rulebook.
The hare bloodlines are here to stay & we've had them so long now we don't even call them 'hare blood" anymore. These dogs are proficient cottontail dogs. Times change & even the most novice breeder would have been able to create a good cottontail line from this hare blood. Much easier than using show blood.
If you have 15-18 good dogs on the ground, if you have a single check, something is wrong. Take a pack of 4-6 out & see if your runs get don't get longer.

[sbeagler]

BH "When the hare blood began to take over, it took the aggressiveness to an unacceptable level, and we started to have runs of short dashes followed by a check, repeated over and over, often to a lost rabbit. Gone were the long driving runs we had seen earlier. It was no surprise, since these were hounds bred to run a different animal, a big running hare instead of a twisty cottontail. I was there, trying to judge at this time, and not happy about what I was seeing, but I WAS seeing it first hand. The big males that used to be the stars of the show were now so bad it was disgusting. I have been very careful to steer clear of those bloodlines in my own breeding program. I am glad to hear you say it has been cleaned up, but the Midwest has been using basically the same bloodlines for about 25 years now, so any changes were not because different lines were introduce

BH : Mike: I have no interest in a hare trial. I would not like the hounds there, so it would not be worth the trip. They don't have the conformation or running style I am after these days, but everyone likes something a little differenT".[/quote]
Steve:I have ran the MWGDA and agree in part with what your saying being sloppy in those days, but l also agree with WELLS statement of being cleaned up alot since then. You say you seen no changes in those bloodlines that is PARTIALLY true, but there has been more Careful Selection and culling since those days ,and there are proven bloodlines that have been out crossed and brung in like IFC Taylor's Sock It To Me,Mountain Man, Striker,Maravics. To Me was owned by Art Taylor bred by Joel Ferguson Edinburgh Beagle Club. To me won hare cottontail large pack and small pack trials. Even guys that ran only close clean pure bred cottontail dogs were amazed how fast but CLEAN he could run a cottontail.He was also a killer snow hound could move lines nothing else would open on. If you do an extended pedigree these hounds that I mentioned have a lot of the original ole timey cottontail blood are in them and you dont see the walkie talkie blood of the 60-70's. Sure it was a growing process for the MWGDA, and you are dang right there was a period of 50 yard dashes. However, there's has been a lot of betterment in the dogs ran today.Can I provide proof? Sure? FCGD MT STATES BLUE BUD places and wins mostly in the midwest; however, he even won a trial in PA under judges that wont tolerate sloppy running. Second FCGD Church's Blue Flame Hector placed and won from the gulf coast midwest, to the northeast on hare, cottontail, swamp rabbits, cane cutters in small packs, large packs under fast and conservative judging . hector only needed points to finish had not been ran in 3 weeks as he was with the Wilson brothers who was busy driving a truck.Hector was taken to a cottontail trial at a SPO club that promotes clean dogs in the IBGDA.. The grounds had been ran hard jumps were hard to get Hector jumped in the first 2 series baby rabbits he would drive them around for all to see.The local all cottontail bred dogs never opened .One dog no name mentioned there Association high hound never opened either all saw it Finally the winners pack went to a new grounds again he got the first jump a mature cottontail.He ran that rabbit 45 minutes every breath with out a single check almost looking at that rabbit. The rabbit was coming out to make sharp turns off the trail system to evade the dogs. Hector made them all. Finally one the judges known for being really picky deliberately turned the rabbit to see if he blow off the end but, he stopped right away made a small circle exploded off that check bam gone before the others knew what hit them. He and one other a dog bred similarly finished behind Hector second. A lot the other dogs tightened their mouth up trying to keep up. When it was said and done Hector won a class of 24 convincingly against all odds and being out of shape to finish underall types of judges and formats I must say Main Events Show Time is an incredible check dog that's clean and can do it ALL any game any format.He's a NLPC i seen him check dogs to death on dry ridges at Edinburg LPH and when they pounded the low lands at head high running he was in the front mix of a pack of 50 plus hounds..He is a gundog midwest dog field champion making the transitions to do it all over the country in the BIG EVENTS and still be a cracker jack cottontail dog.The feeling among midwest trialers is if they can run to kill a cottontail stepping up to LPH is like running a painted line at times.NUMEROUS MWGDA guys have proudly represented the association leaving their native surroundings to place or win at the National Large Pack Championship (HARE) and even also the International Trial of Champions and Large Pack Futurity. A tradition like this is why the MIDWEST GUNDOG ASSOCIATION continues to grow while many have faded away or dying.The rabbit hunters in our area NC SC VA TN almost all have grown disgusted with some the other pottering type hounds around and have purchased or bred to hounds out of the MWGDA as here hedge row dogs are not enough.Rabbits here are found in thicker large like cut overs usually lot brush piles and briars lots of them.It takes a tough hound and one that can drive him hard to see or hear the rabbit . When you run the conservative bred field champion lines that lack the tools and finished running in the rabbit pens the rabbits here will sneak by you as you cant hear them running for the lives through the thick cover.It is what it is not trying to be rude or a know it all if I did I apologize. If you place a dog in the MWGDA today, you can be very proud the majority of the time.Steve ps maybe a fun challenege can be set up bring your best show up at PINEY WV at the lock and dam plenty briars plenty looks every person score but cant score your own dog lol - ALL DAY LONG see who runs out of gas see who keeps the line can drive the bus and not run off a cliff. ** i forgot to add FC Hills Prime Time Trial Blazer he had a huge nose was the Better Beagling High Hound clean in the check done it right won all over the country. I owned his sister none these hounds I mentioned were off the end as alledged. I myself dont care for the big packs, but I most say it takes a level headed hound not to blow up and to come out on top.Good judges will scan the check areas for faults, and score what they can see.Most mistakes in judging are due to following behind trying to make assumptions rather than watching from the front on marked lines. The september trials are tough too because its hard to see from all the green weeds and cover. You really need to seee if you want it right These 2 things are where mistakes come in-never assume anything - see for yourself

[WELLS WOODS]

Yeah sbeagler, Some of the dogs I've seen run in the Mid-West were unbelievable. We've had some amazing talent in every class. Some guys keep running their FC's in the Mid-West & other AKC associations in order to compete in the Better Beagling High Hound Awards & have had great success. We've had a few hounds gain up to 10 wins & one had 16 wins! I think one hound even set a record for AKC licensed points! The Mid-West is going in the right direction & if we ever start getting off course, we've got the AKC rulebook to guide us back to what a rabbit dog should be.

[duckbuster38401]

I think it depends on what the judges like, I like a dog fast and clean. I dont like a dog that swings and cuts. Some judges like that style of dog. I want a dog that can run both and run it righ hair or cotton. Win or lose im going to run what I like and keep trying.