Arched loins and hound speed

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gwyoung
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Arched loins and hound speed

Post by gwyoung »

Wells woods, Arched loins , some make much ado about them when in fact arched loins should be a non-topic because most hounds do have arched loins, occasionally you will see one with flat loins but most will be arched. the problem here is that most have the idea if some is good than more must be better, this is often not the case but most don't seem to grasp this concept, this is evident in some hounds they have such an arch to their loins that they appear to be " jacked up in the back, as if they had a stick run up their rectum. where do we see most of those at? the standard is slightly arched not a hump . I guess slightly arched is like an 8 on speed we all have a different idea of what it is. You mentioned fast dogs and thought perhaps I was allergic to speed. nothing could be further from the truth I would like to own hounds that ran an honest 15 on a scale of one to ten. but I won't tolerate the breakdowns that most do, I won't tolerate hounds running 50' off the end I won't tolerate hounds that circle 75 yards out in front to recover a check. I hate those straight liners at the end of the straight line they have to try and find the rabbit. Some only think of accomplishment and if that is all that matters to anyone I feel sorry for them they will never understand the beauty of good hound work. I am not hooked on style either.To get the rabbit back SOMEHOW is offensive to me and extremely ugly. My type of hound will bring the bunny to the gun without you freezing to death and he won't do his checkwork 75 yards away from the point of loss, at the end of the day I expect no lost rabbits either, that don't always happen but it happens way more often than not. I like about a 6 -6.5 on speed one can stay on the track at that speed . Fast hounds are the easiest thing in the world to breed and when you take a trial that rewards speed at a greater rate than houndwork ( some will be surprised to learn that speed is not houndwork) it becomes easier to breed for this type of trial. how the hell did we get on this? let me sum it all up and just let it lay. I hate a long dog, they disgust me, I think that is what started all of this. one more night cap and I am signing off. I'll take a look at those hounds you mentioned tomorrow, I just know that the two places I see a lot of long dogs are traditional brace and mid-west. mid-west whippet like and brace toad like! if long is not representative of mid-west I have simply not seen enough of them, I gave my opinion on what I have seen and I originally said so.

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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by WELLS WOODS »

I agree with your view on houndwork; lot of variables to being a true FC. I like a dog that knows when he can or has to shift gears; way up or way down. As far as arched loins go, your dog & the ones I mentioned look about right. Best of luck with your hounds.
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Moore Beagles
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by Moore Beagles »

gwyoung wrote:Wells woods, Arched loins , some make much ado about them when in fact arched loins should be a non-topic because most hounds do have arched loins, occasionally you will see one with flat loins but most will be arched. the problem here is that most have the idea if some is good than more must be better, this is often not the case but most don't seem to grasp this concept, this is evident in some hounds they have such an arch to their loins that they appear to be " jacked up in the back, as if they had a stick run up their rectum. where do we see most of those at? the standard is slightly arched not a hump . I guess slightly arched is like an 8 on speed we all have a different idea of what it is. You mentioned fast dogs and thought perhaps I was allergic to speed. nothing could be further from the truth I would like to own hounds that ran an honest 15 on a scale of one to ten. but I won't tolerate the breakdowns that most do, I won't tolerate hounds running 50' off the end I won't tolerate hounds that circle 75 yards out in front to recover a check. I hate those straight liners at the end of the straight line they have to try and find the rabbit. Some only think of accomplishment and if that is all that matters to anyone I feel sorry for them they will never understand the beauty of good hound work. I am not hooked on style either.To get the rabbit back SOMEHOW is offensive to me and extremely ugly. My type of hound will bring the bunny to the gun without you freezing to death and he won't do his checkwork 75 yards away from the point of loss, at the end of the day I expect no lost rabbits either, that don't always happen but it happens way more often than not. I like about a 6 -6.5 on speed one can stay on the track at that speed . Fast hounds are the easiest thing in the world to breed and when you take a trial that rewards speed at a greater rate than houndwork ( some will be surprised to learn that speed is not houndwork) it becomes easier to breed for this type of trial. how the hell did we get on this? let me sum it all up and just let it lay. I hate a long dog, they disgust me, I think that is what started all of this. one more night cap and I am signing off. I'll take a look at those hounds you mentioned tomorrow, I just know that the two places I see a lot of long dogs are traditional brace and mid-west. mid-west whippet like and brace toad like! if long is not representative of mid-west I have simply not seen enough of them, I gave my opinion on what I have seen and I originally said so.
Good Post Agreed..... My feelings exactly.
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warddog
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by warddog »

Moore Beagles wrote:
gwyoung wrote:Wells woods, Arched loins , some make much ado about them when in fact arched loins should be a non-topic because most hounds do have arched loins, occasionally you will see one with flat loins but most will be arched. the problem here is that most have the idea if some is good than more must be better, this is often not the case but most don't seem to grasp this concept, this is evident in some hounds they have such an arch to their loins that they appear to be " jacked up in the back, as if they had a stick run up their rectum. where do we see most of those at? the standard is slightly arched not a hump . I guess slightly arched is like an 8 on speed we all have a different idea of what it is. You mentioned fast dogs and thought perhaps I was allergic to speed. nothing could be further from the truth I would like to own hounds that ran an honest 15 on a scale of one to ten. but I won't tolerate the breakdowns that most do, I won't tolerate hounds running 50' off the end I won't tolerate hounds that circle 75 yards out in front to recover a check. I hate those straight liners at the end of the straight line they have to try and find the rabbit. Some only think of accomplishment and if that is all that matters to anyone I feel sorry for them they will never understand the beauty of good hound work. I am not hooked on style either.To get the rabbit back SOMEHOW is offensive to me and extremely ugly. My type of hound will bring the bunny to the gun without you freezing to death and he won't do his checkwork 75 yards away from the point of loss, at the end of the day I expect no lost rabbits either, that don't always happen but it happens way more often than not. I like about a 6 -6.5 on speed one can stay on the track at that speed . Fast hounds are the easiest thing in the world to breed and when you take a trial that rewards speed at a greater rate than houndwork ( some will be surprised to learn that speed is not houndwork) it becomes easier to breed for this type of trial. how the hell did we get on this? let me sum it all up and just let it lay. I hate a long dog, they disgust me, I think that is what started all of this. one more night cap and I am signing off. I'll take a look at those hounds you mentioned tomorrow, I just know that the two places I see a lot of long dogs are traditional brace and mid-west. mid-west whippet like and brace toad like! if long is not representative of mid-west I have simply not seen enough of them, I gave my opinion on what I have seen and I originally said so.
Good Post Agreed..... My feelings exactly.
+2

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Alabama John
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by Alabama John »

There are dogs that run close as you specified and still run fast speed and catch one if it runs for very long without going to ground.
What you described is a faulty wild dog and that is not a fast dog.
Point is for some folks, only a slow or medium speed at best dog can run close and that is not true.
That is the old brace trial thinking.
Dogs can run fast and solid and close on a check.
Difference is most that have that type of dog do not trial, only hunt or enjoy running as their dog would not do well in trials as it doesn't have many 15 second checks to get points and in most cases will run off and leave the pack and get disqualified.
Always remember the closer the rabbit, the stronger the scent and the less will be the tricks as there is no time to pull them.
Good gauge to go by is how many does a dog run down and catch?

BCBeagles
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by BCBeagles »

There was a gentleman on here a couple summer back said his male caught 11 in one week for something to that effect.....I asked him when I could come watch this dog and/or buy him or breed to him....funny I never heard back....I was ready to travel.

Speed is captivating and exciting....all agree on that....just where are these dogs with pure speed and pure tracking and close when they lose a rabbit....simply where are they??????...I want to see them and possibly own them...all seriousness.

I have to see it to believe it....and yes I will be at a Midwest trial in September running an upper medium speed 15 inch male.....so maybe I will see what I am always looking for.

I agree with athletic built dogs and foot....athleticism leads to good movement...I have, however, seen some extremely bulky hounds move very, very quickly....desire cannot be measured by loin arch......

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Alabama John
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by Alabama John »

Jim,
I do not have one now.
I will see some this fall and winter and will tell you about the ones I see.
Good thing for you is they are usually for sale since building a pack around them is almost impossible so folks sell the run off and leave the others dogs, to help their pack and to keep having hunting friends.
Too fast to trial as judges cannot keep up and they run so far ahead of the pack that the other dogs quit trying to keep up and start looking for another rabbit.
Had that happen twice in ARHA trials so they had me put my dog up and judged the others, She had circled the rabbit around twice by herself before almost catching it as I went to the sitting rabbit and by hand picked it up and put it in my coat pocket until it recovered.
They are fun to run, but not good at building friends.

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Alabama John
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by Alabama John »

Back on subject, arched loins are a good thing, but for judging speed the best indicator is size of butt hole.

Bigger the hole, slower the dog, tighter and smaller the hole faster the dog. Watch any beagler or fox hunter old timer raise the tail and look under to quietly judge.

Good thing to know when buying at a trade day!!!!

BCBeagles
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by BCBeagles »

I would see that happening...lol.

Thanks John and take care!

gwyoung
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by gwyoung »

bcbeagles, I don't know if I always agree with you or that I don't, I don't keep score, but I do store overall impressions, my overall impression of you is of a smart houndsman , at least you don't ever seem to put " bad stuff " out there. Never seem to believe something just because it is repeated by so many, definitely not a me tooer. not afraid to turn the pack when you know something is amiss. People talk about blazing fast and right on the line as if it is common but don't ask for a video, you won't get it or you will get a short clip of a straight line, or a one time lucky gamble. I like to hear about the hound that with a pack in full cry at great speed stops and turns it on them on a dime, they seem to be a dime a dozen to boot, I laugh at that as well. Not long ago I was with another guy watching our hounds run and darn if going down a path we didn't get an ugly over-run his hound came back 40' to get the line and drove on , the guy turned to me and said ole buck turned that one on them didn't he, yeah, ole buck turned it just like all of those others that turn it on a dime he committed the big over-run but just because he was the first one back he turned it on the rest of the Pack, that is where your turning it on them NORMALLY comes from, or if one doesn't go quite as far as the others, after the hound commits a big over-run of his own he gets credit for turning it because the others went farther! in fact those hounds that can actually turn it on a pack in full cry are more rare then the blazing speed line control hound which most own, LOL.

gwyoung
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by gwyoung »

Alabama, not doubting you on the Butthole thing as I have seen it time and time again, what I never did know was why the big hole was the slow dog and the little hole the fast dog, or why the other way around would not be correct. I guess I really don't know everything, why is the big butt slower than the small butt, I may get asked this question at some time in the future and it would be embarrassing if I could not at that time maintain my Know-it-all attitude! Please help!

BCBeagles
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by BCBeagles »

lol....had a coonhunter tell me the same thing...big butthole leads to quality....don't know if he meant a quality bowel movement.

Thanks for the compliments GW.....I am an empty sponge....ready to absorb....lol.

pilotknob
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by pilotknob »

Alabama John wrote:There are dogs that run close as you specified and still run fast speed and catch one if it runs for very long without going to ground.
What you described is a faulty wild dog and that is not a fast dog.
Point is for some folks, only a slow or medium speed at best dog can run close and that is not true.
That is the old brace trial thinking.
Dogs can run fast and solid and close on a check.
Difference is most that have that type of dog do not trial, only hunt or enjoy running as their dog would not do well in trials as it doesn't have many 15 second checks to get points and in most cases will run off and leave the pack and get disqualified.
Always remember the closer the rabbit, the stronger the scent and the less will be the tricks as there is no time to pull them.
Good gauge to go by is how many does a dog run down and catch?
I'ed like to run some dogs with you if we could ever get the chance.I'll go one further John as time goes by and I keep fooling with hounds I've come to believe that at least 75 % of the checks that a pack or a single dog for that matter makes are the dogs fault.Quick clean running hounds like you described keep enough pressure on a rabbit that it can't do much of anything but run away from them and they don't give it any time to rest.Trials score checks,the old timers I knew that have put the time in on their packs look at checks as mistakes.You are dead on about the speed of a hound and their butt hole size.Go to a UGBF trial and watch them when they turn them loose in a pen.You couldn't cover most of their A-holes with a silver dollar.

gwyoung
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by gwyoung »

Do you not think that if it is the rabbit that creates any checks than he creates all checks? and if it is the hound that creates any checks than he creates all checks? Would you say that a check is a breakdown in the HOUNDS ability to pursue? Interference from outside forces included? " Couldn't cover their A-hole with a silver dollar" now that is funny right there!

pilotknob
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Re: Arched loins and hound speed

Post by pilotknob »

From what I've seen given the time,most grown rabbits will try to pull a trick or two to confuse their scent.The more they have been run the better they are at it and the less time they can be given.Over competitiveness is the fault I keep seeing show up in a lot of hounds today.I understand the need for a hound that will stand alone and not pay attention to pack mates when in a field trial situation.Not the same thing you look for if you are trying to put together a smooth pack.An old guy told me along time ago that a rabbit race and a dog race behind a rabbit look a lot alike.He had to show me what he was talking about several times before I could see it.

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