hare bred hounds X cottontail bred hounds

gmbeagler44 · Post by **gmbeagler44** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:35 pm

Re: hare bred hounds X cottontail bred hounds
by Bringem back kennels » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:04 am

I don't think there is as much of a difference in the dogs as there is in the game they pursue IMHO.
A cottontail has more erratic movement with many twist and turns. A Hare runs a straighter larger circle.
Which one of these species will a dog be able to display more foot?
My dogs have a lot of Branko bloodline and several IFC champions in there. I run cottontails and dogs have to learn to gear down some in order to
adequately stay on line. However, you let that bunny go in a straight line or a large circle for any distance at all and you see them kick into over drive.
My dogs have never run a hare but, I have watched some video of dogs running hare (i know this is not indicative of all hare hounds) i'm confident my dogs could run with them.
A lot of dogs have won trials running both species....did there foot speed change or did the dog adjust?

Amen, You boys need to breed not only nose and foot, but brains too.

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:49 am

It is all up to the breeder; what style of hound he wants to continue to breed for. You can mold any bloodline within a few generations depending on which offspring you use for breeding. I like a well built hound with plenty of foot speed, but a conservative, point of loss, check dog that runs a smooth rabbit.

Shady Grove Beagles · Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:27 am

Who said there is no difference in hare BRED hounds and cottontail BRED hounds? In my opinion there is a world of difference!The word that we need to focus on here is "BRED".It goes without saying that a good beagle hound should be able to run hare in Maine,cottontail in Tennessee and swampers in Louisiana.Mine do! Do they tend to run one better than the other?Yup.Probably due to their breeding.
You talk about hare bred dogs running cottontail.I moved to Tn. from N.H. almost 20 years ago and the beagles I brought with me were bred from dogs in northern New England,up-state New York and Canada.Yes, they carried a lot of Branko blood in their background.At that time I started attending A.R.H.A. Little Pack trials in middle Tn. most of the other beaglers had never heard of Branko Krpan. The local beaglers that I hooked up with 20 years ago had good hounds that once they locked on the rabbit seldom lost it but at the same time usually were running a half circle behind my dogs when we ran together.These hounds were what you woud call "southern cottontail" dogs as they were all bred in Tn. or north Ga. and north Alabama.Because of the differences in running styles we didn't run together much after that as they were just not compatible.
Now adays I run with 4-5 different fellows throughout Tn.and Ky.and they all are running hounds that are bred very similar to mine and run with the same style.The influence of the northern hare BRED hound can be seen throughout the south.On the contrary I don't know of any of the northern hare hunters that have routinely tried to incorporate the typical southern cottontail BRED hounds in their breedings.Why????? You'd have to ask those who breed.
As far as nose is concerned I wouldn't venture my opinion on who has the better nose.I've seen dogs here in the south when it was dry and pushing 90 take a cottontail track and carry it down a dusty dirt road.Also watched northern hounds able to run a track in deep snow when it was below zero.A good hound with a good nose is a good hound no matter how or where he was bred.
With the inter net and todays communication options folks are able to check out dogs from all parts of the U.S. and incorporate hounds of different traits and abilities into their kennels easier now than in years past.
It may be harder now to say this dog is a cottontail dog or this one is a hare hound as breedings have incorporated many different lines.
For trialers the lines still tend to be fairly rigid though as you won't see many hare BRED hounds stay down at a U.B.G.F. trial and your typical southern BRED cottontail dog will struggle at a Mid-West trial and I doubt would be competitive at any Large Pack trials.
As Greg Wells mentioned you can mold about any line into what you want within a few generations of making the right crosses.
Just because your beagle can/does run both hare and cottontail don't mistake that for there not being any difference in how traits are sought when folks breed their hounds.Why would Branko breed for a medium speed,close,head down,bark every breath,slot up,cover them with a blanket hound.Or your rabbit hunter down in south Alabama seek a heads up,petal-to-the-metal driving hound to hunt the super thick,crawl -on -your- belly briars and honey suckle?
This is only my opinion and you know what they say about opinions------I have yet to see a typical southern BRED cottontail hound that had near the foot of your typical northern BRED hare hound unless that southern hound had hare BREEDING behind him.Your Skullfork,Blackcreek,Stubby,Weircreek,etc. just aren't going to provide that.Is foot the defining factor? Of course not! But to say there is no difference in the two aforementioned types cottontail vs hare BRED is crazy.
As far as breeding one type to the other it has been going on for a lot of years now with mixed results.If you want the slower more conservative type hound for your needs it is better to breed within that type and fine tune as you go for what you'd like to ad.If you like the more agressive harder hitting type but again want to fine tune this way or that then find the hounds within your type that possess more of what your looking for.
Very seldom do breeders get what they want when breeding two diverse types in the hopes of getting something in the middle.Usually you get one or the other.Fast dog to slow dog usually doesn't result in medium dogs---usually some fast and some slow.Same with size,mouthy and tight,etc.
I myself am a believer in linbreeding as it is easier to fine tune within the family line than it is to outcross reaching here and there trying to ad ingredients like you are mixing a cake.
As always JMHO.

deerhost · Post by **deerhost** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:40 pm

We are on the border here in NY. Southern New York on the border of PA and south into PA we have only have cottontails further up in NY we have hare. people in different regions will breed for what they need so in the extreme north hounds man have breed hounds to run faster and stay closer to the Hare as the hare covers more ground and the dogs have to stay closer to the hare to keep the line going as the conditions are tough in winter and the trail scent quickly gets colder. Also those breeders of northern blood breed for big snow nose. Hare run a more direct line with fewer twist and turns so extreme control may not be some thing they are breeding for. The northern breed hound may or may not be able to run a cottontail. I think its not an issue of not being able to but really an issue of not doing it well. Most can but some just can't gear down and twist and turn with a cottontail. They may still run a cottontail but the race is usually not enjoyable to watch. Lots of break downs, overrunning and so on. You can still shoot rabbits but it's just not enjoyable to watch. On the flip side cottontail dogs are breed by more southern hounds man to stay closer to the check and more line control to keep from loosing the line every time the cottontail twist and turns. They also breed there best hounds that can run on dry hot parched ground. Can a cottontail breed hound run a hare? Yes, maybe or for the most part but again the hare race with these dogs is choppy with long loses. The hare bounds and leaps and the cottontail hounds get stuck in the check not realizing the check is way out in front of them and the hare is getting further and further and the trail is getting cold. I think either dog wether cottontail or hare bred should be able to adapt if run in either environment for enough time but some hounds never can and just don't do well. I think there is a world of difference bettween cottontail and hare breed hounds. Up here because we have both hare and cottontail you will find a lot of hounds man and hounds with mixed hare and cottontail breeding in there dogs pedigree. Most of my dogs are breed that way. Dan Lang has a female who just finished for her FC who is branko and flat creek bred. And there are many other guys here breeding the same way. Some of the hounds I have seen that can really run both rabbit and hare well and have super noses for dry and also snowy conditions are Eaton Brook, DFJ, buckshot Mr. Bill,some of the rangerdan stuff breed to some of the cottontail stuff, the Slocums up in NY have some nice hounds that excell on both hare and rabbit and there many many more. You can go to a trial up here and run a hare one minute and then a rabbit two minutes later so your dogs better be able to do both. Most of theses dogs have both cottontail and hare blood way back in there pedigree so they are consistant when breed with other hounds of the same mix. The problem I have seen is when breeding Two hounds that are all hare breeding on one side and all cottontail breeding on the other is that you get pups that are inconsistant. Either they run like northern dogs they run like southern dogs. One or two may run like a i want. Generaly a mix of both. Usually I keep the ones that run like a mixture of both and sell the rest to people who want either a hare dog or cottontail dog. For me to actually be consistant with my limited breedings It would take generations of breeding dogs this way before I got most of the pups running like i want. I would never have the time or resources to do that and don't even considermy self a breeder. Im breeding for my self for hounds I need to be able to run year round in my area.Thats it.............That is just my opinion.......DH

Rabbit Fever · Post by **Rabbit Fever** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:25 pm

One of the best hounds I ever had was breed from cotton tail blood and Hare blood. Pearson Creek x Little Cedar River. Shot over 3000 Hare with this hound. That was the basis of my whole kennel and still is.

Casey Harner · Post by **Casey Harner** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:08 pm

Kimbrel's Kick Em Up Kane, southern bred dog with speed and drive. Another one I've seen personally go and a few of his offspring is Glomski's Thunder Run Jdell.

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:49 am

There you go. You don't see much of that breeding with enough foot for the Mid-West, but this selective breeder made it happen.

Lone Pine Beagles · Post by **Lone Pine Beagles** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:40 pm

The original Indian Hills dogs were not only cottontail bred, but had show blood to boot!

Richie57 · Post by **Richie57** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:57 pm

A great debate that has been going on for decades. Got looking back at some of my old H&H magazines, Sept. Of 1953 article Hare Hounds vs. Cottontail Hounds by A.D. Holcombe. Many of the same opinions as posted here but a great read. I can remember a time back in the early to mid 60's beaglers coming down from the U.P. of MI and running at the old Central Il Beagle Club with some success. Interesting post and debate for sure.

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:55 pm

Lone Pine, I'll pass on show blood, unless the hounds were proven to be excellent in the field also. Most were never hunted, just bred for their looks. Conformation is important, but talent in the field comes first. I think you can get both, looks & ability, with proper culling. Indian Hills had harehound blood too if I remember right. I've heard that the show dogs used by R.B. Sester & John New were good in the field also, but you can't predict what faults may lie in a bloodline of several generations of beagles that weren't proven to be quality hunting dogs. R.B never crossed back into show blood that I know of.

John Way · Post by **John Way** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:48 pm

Billy Boy - There are some out there producing decent hounds that way. I would call it hard hitting hounds -vs- more consertive hounds. Not hare -vs- cottontail nonsense thats talked to death. It comes down to a well rounded hound being best. . It is really just a matter of preference on speed. I know a few guys that run app brace hounds on hare and are quite successful. They don't scream through the woods,but Have big noses and adapt. Guess what , the hare don't run big usually. They run more like a cottontail with less pressure. The thrill of a wind splitter driving a hare is very exciting when conditions permit. . There is no such thing as hare bred / cottontail bred. Its all opinion and preference. What u enjoy. If I only ran hare , I would be more apt to ramp my hounds up, because u can sacrifice more control and still drive a hare -vs- a cottontail. Where I live we hunt both , mostly cottontail. Finding that middle ground is inportant. If your interested in some breeding along those lines , send me a pm and will get u a few contacts.

adirondackjoe · Post by **adirondackjoe** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:01 pm

well put john.

Shady Grove Beagles · Post by **Shady Grove Beagles** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:25 pm

Deerhost
A very good and well thought out post!!

deerhost · Post by **deerhost** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:02 pm

Thanks shady grove. I figure call them what ever you want. But when we call them hare or cottontail dogs, we are just describing a dog. A fast hard hitting looser on the line and check is better suited to run hare and a tighter slower dog that can twist and turn will run a cottontail better. As far as hare and cottontails running the same. Last year while hare hunting in upstate New York we clocked on our Garmin Astros the dogs running a hare for over 11 miles in one run. Sometimes the hare and dogs would circle 400-500 yards out, now I have never seen a cottontail run like that.....dh

Shady Grove Beagles · Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:14 am

This past October while hare hunting in northern Maine we had several races that each went to the 2+ hour mark of super hard driving running.The dogs were going out up to 1,000 yards at times,coming back into the jump area and going out that distance again according to the Garmins.
I've hunted cottontails in almost a dozen states and I've never seen a cottontail that can stand that with the type of dogs I run--at that pace ,for that long.
Ive heard the guys with the conservative hounds tell about their 3-4 hours runs and that the dogs never lose it.A fundamentally different type beagle bred for it's own particalar skill set as is the northern beagle who may never see cottontail country.
There is a difference and viva' la diference!