hare bred hounds X cottontail bred hounds

[J&J Run Em Down]

Bill - the dogs that I've seen from Matt's litter had plenty of hunt. But I also know that not every pup from a litter works out. I would venture to say that most of pacesetter's offspring had hunt. My dogs from that line have plenty of hunt and every other dog from that line that I have seen, had plenty of hunt. I wish I would have had the opportunity to see Pacesetter run for myself. Since I did not, I can only go by what the man that owned him tells me. I know Pacesetter had been bred several times to different females and produced well with most. John DeWyse has done very well with that line of dogs. Some of our better producing dogs today are still from that line. For instance, Cedarbeck Oliver, Cedarbeck Blazer 2, Bigcreek Lick, and Shaw's Rockhaven Terry. These are just a few of the Pacesetter line dogs living today that I know for sure that have great hunt and producing well. So, no Bill, you are wrong on labeling another man's dog (or line of dogs) as having "no hunt".

[bill (flint river )]

well john, jim smith who was judging back then seen for his own eyes. as far as oliver, i had a female out of him and a shoter female. not hunt and would quit in the middle of the race. does that sound like ranger dan or pace setter. i said she could run the hair of a rabbit once it was up, but wouldnt do the work herself till it was up. and i know plenty of guys that didnt like pace setter. funny the guy who trial have always had better to say then guys who hunted them.

[bill (flint river )]

and i am not listen to the man who owns the hound, plenty of guy cant admit when there hound has faults, i have no issue saying it. i know what i have had over the years i remeber the good ones just like i remeber the bad ones.

[J&J Run Em Down]

You're right Bill on one point, Nehi Duchess is a granddaughter to Pacesetter but she is out of the line of dogs that you claim have no hunt. The Pacesetter Redmaiden cross that you commented on, 4 out out of 5 of the pups went all to gun hunters. JR Hutton had a male, Roy Gardner had a male, Clet kept one female that he later sold to Don Hoag that Don did very well in breeding and getting offsprings from. So for you to ask what dog did well out of that litter, I would have to say, Don Hoag's for producing. The one I owned I got from Roy Gardner and he was one of the best hunting dogs I ever owned as far as searching ability. Redmaiden was just a pure producer. She produced well with every cross. She produced well with Larry Hunt's old Andy dog but I guess because you don't know anything about them, those dogs weren't rabbit dogs either. The Cap and Redmaiden cross was the one most people know about because Clarence Shaw (Clet's dad) got sick and had to medically retire and those were the dogs he started hitting the trial circuit with hard. Clet himself told me several times that you cannot teach hunt so I know he would not have made that cross with Pacesetter and Redmaiden if Pacesetter did not have hunt. For you to say that Pacesetter and Pacesetter pups don't have hunt, would lead me to believe that your dogs don't hunt either since you have dogs from that lineage.

[bill (flint river )]

lol going back to 5 or 6 gen. when not one of thos hounds had pace setter more then twice way back, but allmost all have 6 to 8 of jack of all trades. we can go on and on about this, but the 3 hounds i seen direclty out of pace setter all were lacking hunt but could run a rabbit.

[Big Oak Beagles]

I have yet to hear anyone talk about terrain, it's also a big part of how much speed your dog has. You can have the fastest beagles in the state, but put them in some of the southern brier beds,green briers, black berry or cat briers prickly pear bush, so thick you can't see through it! Then all that speed ain't worth a plug nickel! Had a friend that lived up in the mountains, he had some fast paper dogs 14"-15" ran the snot out of a rabbit up there in the wide open wood and broomstraw valleys. He came down to the coastal plains with our terrain and his dogs couldn't keep up with our little 9" pocket beagles. So the terrain you run in has a lot to do with how fast the dog is, and we don't have hares down here.Doubt a hare would be that fast if you throw him in the southern terrain either!

[bill (flint river )]

I have yet to hear anyone talk about terrain, it's also a big part of how much speed your dog has. You can have the fastest beagles in the state, but put them in some of the southern brier beds,green briers, black berry or cat briers prickly pear bush, so thick you can't see through it! Then all that speed ain't worth a plug nickel! Had a friend that lived up in the mountains, he had some fast paper dogs 14"-15" ran the snot out of a rabbit up there in the wide open wood and broomstraw valleys. He came down to the coastal plains with our terrain and his dogs couldn't keep up with our little 9" pocket beagles. So the terrain you run in has a lot to do with how fast the dog is, and we don't have hares down here.Doubt a hare would be that fast if you throw him in the southern terrain either!

i agree with that, size and speed prolly both work the same way in cetain areas.

[WELLS WOODS]

About terrain, dogs can only do well after some time running in a different environment & getting used to how the rabbits run. Just like your little dogs would get blown away in more open country where rabbits ran different from what their used to.
Back to Pacesetter, IFC Stoneyhill's Tamarack was one of the very best dogs I've ever seen & she had tremendous hunt. She was by Pacesetter & FC Black Point Bessie. One of the best jump dogs in my area was a direct daughter to Pacesetter & my Spring dog was a granddaughter to Pacesetter & had lots of hunt too. I'm sure he threw some that had weak hunt. Every dog does, but the best Pacesetter offspring have helped the breed in a big way if you look at all the great FC's that go back to Pacesetter somewhere in their breeding. And everyone knows that Mid-West beaglers are hunters, not just trialers & use the same dogs.
I've never heard that Pacesetter had weak hunt, but I did hear that he didn't start until he was a year old & once he started it was like he had been doing it for years. I heard he was a very solid hound; not unbeatable, but very good. There is no denying that he was a great producer. It's already been proven.

[hlane]

Talking about hunt in beagles is a broad field cuz everyone has a different opinion of what good hunt is! how a dog hunts by its self
is how i go about describing a dogs hunt. the ranger dan bred dogs ive seen have all had what im looking for as far as hunt goes

[Casey Harner]

The cotton tail bred hounds I've been around seem to have good to extreme hunt and have been true jump dogs.

[WELLS WOODS]

I saw FC Kimbrel's Kick'em Up Kane run once & thought he looked really good. I think he comes from what you would call "cottontail breeding".

[Casey Harner]

I saw FC Kimbrel's Kick'em Up Kane run once & thought he looked really good. I think he comes from what you would call "cottontail breeding".

Yeah he's a real nice dog and yes cotton tail breeding at its finest. I never got the chance to see his mother run, but the stories I have heard of Gunsmoke's Red Pepper II was that she was fast and accurate. She could separate herself from the pack and straight up pound the cotton of the rabbit.

[jim matuszewski]

here is a question for every one, I have no douht that there are well bread cottontail dogs that are as fast and accurate as most hare bread dogs, were I'm at in the middle of winter you need the track to be moving forward at a pretty good pace because the scent goes old pretty fast some days. myself I prefer a little above medium speed dog with a big nose, but I will put up with some cheating and scerting from dogs as long as they can handle the front when they get there. now to my question wouldn't you be better off finding a well bread dog locally that fits your preference? I would think that getting a dog that has generations of breading behind it running in the terrain that you live in would be the best way to go.

[Casey Harner]

Prefer a cross between a hare bred hound and a cotton tail bred dog. You get the best of both worlds.

[WELLS WOODS]

I believe a good dog will succeed where ever he's at. They know when they need to slow down & when they can speed up to cut the distance. You may need plenty of nose in your area, but sometimes brains can take you farther & desire is one area you definitely can't sacrifice on tough conditions. Skirting & swinging means something totally different to a UBGF & Mid-West trialer. For dogs to run with the intent to overtake their game in a pack, their not always going to be lined up single file on the line barking their heads off every 10 feet. Dogs like this are making running a rabbit look more difficult than it really is. On the other hand, dogs that are clearly cheating just to beat the other dogs & are not working with the pack will disrupt progress. A good judge can tell which hounds are focused on the line & the ones feeding off the pack. Foot should never be a fault if a hound continues to make smooth progress with very few breakdowns & mistakes. Sometimes the rabbit will cause a check; that's okay, but when hounds continue to have long periods off the line, their is usually a faulty hound or two to blame.
I don't believe in crossing UBGF dogs with Mid-West style dogs. I believe in linebreeding & occasional outcrossing the type you prefer to hunt with that have a background of generations of hounds of the same type. Then cull to fit what your looking for.