hare bred hounds X cottontail bred hounds

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Excellent post Greg!

[BCBeagles]

I agree...BUT will add....the most disruptive thing to any race regardless of speed is OVERCOMPETITIVENESS...call it what you will. It is an extreme detriment to any style of dog. But I feel that many will say, as would I, that we see the overcompetitiveness in the "explode out of the check" lines much more than in the more "conservative" lines.

Call it lack of focus or whatever you want... BUT it affects running more than anything else does in my opinion. Take six focused dogs and one that is running to outdue his pack mates...aka horse racing as I like to say....and the running is effected so adversely that it takes away from even the focus of the MOST focused hounds.

If a judge is seeing this consistently I don't care if it is UBGF, Midwest, ARHA, it is a FAULT...if you are not breeding for focus and independence you will simply end up with a pack of "me to" hounds, REGARDLESS the lines you enjoy. They will simply be opportunistic pack dogs that take advantage of opportunities that are inevitably going to be available to them.....not a complete hound that is pursuing the rabbit as scent allows.

Again...my opinions.

[main event`s beagles]

interesting

[Ron Conroe]

I agree...BUT will add....the most disruptive thing to any race regardless of speed is OVERCOMPETITIVENESS...call it what you will. It is an extreme detriment to any style of dog. But I feel that many will say, as would I, that we see the overcompetitiveness in the "explode out of the check" lines much more than in the more "conservative" lines.

Call it lack of focus or whatever you want... BUT it affects running more than anything else does in my opinion. Take six focused dogs and one that is running to outdue his pack mates...aka horse racing as I like to say....and the running is effected so adversely that it takes away from even the focus of the MOST focused hounds.

If a judge is seeing this consistently I don't care if it is UBGF, Midwest, ARHA, it is a FAULT...if you are not breeding for focus and independence you will simply end up with a pack of "me to" hounds, REGARDLESS the lines you enjoy. They will simply be opportunistic pack dogs that take advantage of opportunities that are inevitably going to be available to them.....not a complete hound that is pursuing the rabbit as scent allows.

Again...my opinions.

Well said Jim.

[Swampman]

I agree...BUT will add....the most disruptive thing to any race regardless of speed is OVERCOMPETITIVENESS...call it what you will. It is an extreme detriment to any style of dog. But I feel that many will say, as would I, that we see the overcompetitiveness in the "explode out of the check" lines much more than in the more "conservative" lines.

Call it lack of focus or whatever you want... BUT it affects running more than anything else does in my opinion. Take six focused dogs and one that is running to outdue his pack mates...aka horse racing as I like to say....and the running is effected so adversely that it takes away from even the focus of the MOST focused hounds.

If a judge is seeing this consistently I don't care if it is UBGF, Midwest, ARHA, it is a FAULT...if you are not breeding for focus and independence you will simply end up with a pack of "me to" hounds, REGARDLESS the lines you enjoy. They will simply be opportunistic pack dogs that take advantage of opportunities that are inevitably going to be available to them.....not a complete hound that is pursuing the rabbit as scent allows.

Again...my opinions.

Well said Jim.

[WELLS WOODS]

I agree. Over competitive hounds are the ones that usually start racing, swinging, skirting, running mute,etc.,; any form of cheating. I still want a competitive spirit in my hounds, but like you said more focus on the rabbit than their packmates.
Give me the "explode out of the check" lines though.

[hlane]

personally i like the intensity some of the northern dogs run with. seem to have alot of power but imo. you have too many over-runs and break downs on cottontails. i like speed and power but also want a hound to stay on the track and run it like he's tied to it. seems almost impossible to have hounds with all these qualities ???

Its not impossible!

[augerhead]

I won't keep a hound that isn't trying to catch the rabbit, and out run the rest in the pack. I competitive dog does not have to be a race wrecker or a me tooer. To often I think we make general statements like a fast dog can't run a track, or will tear up your race or what ever. The truth is a GOOD fast competitive dog will do nothing but improve your running. Key word being GOOD, a race wrecker is no count whether he is competitive, fast, or not. JMO

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Wow. Here we go again.Seems that every "fast or hard hitting" dog can't keep a race going,constantly overshoots the check area,swings,no line control,a race horse,over competitive,etc.,etc.
Why is it that folks always seem to want to label a hound as faulty when they have been endowed with the ability to really rock and roll with their game and outshine the competition?
I know what "over competitiveness" is.I've also had a ton of opportunity since moving south 20 years ago to see what most refer to as "conservative" type of beagles.These are beagles that are trialed in the U.B.G.F. format and a lot of folks around these parts have them.
It's only my opinion but I'd say that most of those hounds surely are not "overly competitive" and many of their stud ads state that they are not "overly competitive" as a major selling point to use them.After watching quite a few of them run I'd have to say that a large percentage are not "competitive" at all! To me any hound that is content to slot up and run behind a bunch of his packmates all day is not one that I'll follow.It's like sled dogs,if you're not the lead dog the view is always the same.If I have a dog that is content to run in the back of the back all the time even if they NEVER lose the rabbit they won't stay here.
I spent quite a few years running behind bear hounds up north.Sometimes some fellow would want to come hunt and he'd bring a coonhound to try on bear.A lot of those hounds were used to trailing along behind the coon until he treed.Ran the coon pretty conservatively.Most times they'd get left in the dust as they were so "focused" on that scent between their legs that they didn't realize that the rest of the pack had already treed 2 miles ahead of them.Nobody wants a faulty running hound but if he has the ability then he darn well better have the competitiveness to pick his head up and run with the dogs that have got the game in front of them!
A good fast dog will make his own good running.

[augerhead]

Amen

[Rabbit/Hareman123]

preach shady grove preach,and well said.

[wireman252]

Shady Grove Beagles ,You're speaking my language. No better place to be , then on the front.

[WELLS WOODS]

Yeah, if your dog can get the front the right way & can handle it. If not, you may be headed to the truck pretty quick. I've been there myself a few times. Most of the time, the best dogs run up in the top three on the drives & are focused on the line & ready to make the turn or snap back at the point of loss & ready to do checkwork. It's hard to beat a fast dog that can handle the track, but a lot of dogs try to out run their nose & ability & make a mess of things; especially young dogs with a lot of pep to them. You can blow an immature hound up quick in the Mid-West.

[BCBeagles]

I guess the conservative I refer to is different than most. I don't see where conservative has to mean slow, but I can understand why people would see it that way.
When I say conservative I mean willing to slow down and work...stay on the safe side and not go full tilt UNTIL you CAN go full tilt.

When I say independent I mean that they function on there own merit, not needing any reliance of pack mates to work a tight check area and take a track for what the scent is and move accordingly. If they pick up the check with strong scent move quickly, if they pick up a check with scent at a minimum walk if need be. I know this is not profound in any way...lol. If a pack mate picks up the check and blows out....they better move to get in a position to contribute whether in the back or 2nd slot.

I also don't see fast dogs as a detriment to a good race IF they are holding the line and not loosing focus to the inevitable pack mate that picks up a few checks on them on a regular basis. The over competitive I refer to is losing there head to just push to the front. Seems like people refer to that as competitive spirit. I will confidently say again, if they run very aggressively this tends to happen more. That competitiveness overwhelms there nose, brain, skill, whatever you want to refer to it as.

MANY very aggressive running dogs do this, lose there heads. THEY ALL DON'T DO IT, but the many I have seen did. It takes loads of solo time to even begin to see there best. I just prefer a more level headed type that can run wherever they may end up. I surely don't think the back dog is a good place as they must pursue the scent aggressively. I think we all agree on that.

On the other end of that spectrum you have the slow and less aggressive tracking type. Do you think packing them with harder going dogs is going to make them run harder. I don't believe it will. The dog could be taken back out solo and exhibit it's same traits of pursuit at a slow pace. That is not for me, but some love it...


I guess it is all in what you like and what makes you enjoy a race. That is what it all boils down to.

Good running to all!

[WELLS WOODS]

A dog without competitive spirit will be slow to honor the other hounds & will never be aggressive enough to be a big part of the chase in the Mid-West. I think the AKC rulebook mentions competitive spirit as a desirable quality. Some hounds are too competitive, I agree & should be eliminated if they are disrupting the pack. Some dogs can't handle the pressure of running with hounds of equal or better ability. They will show faulty actions that they would not when running alone or with dogs of less ability. That's what separates the great from the average hound. Hounds that can consistently be competitive in a pack of hounds of equal or better ability while running with the intent to catch without being faulty are few & far between, but that's the excellence we should strive for in my opinion.