hare bred hounds X cottontail bred hounds

[BCBeagles]

This is a trait specific question...not hound specific.

I have seen cottontail bred hounds completely stroke a hare, in extreme conditions, and run these "old" tracks like they are looking at them. They did this at medium speed with head down and noses that most don't ever see. You don't know big noses until you have seen in person big noses, IMO.

I am confident you could take these same hounds and run them on a cottontail with success...BUT the baggage of early mouth on a cottontail would be tough as a cottontail can go to ground.

In reverse...have personally witnessed "hare" bred hounds...ALL northern blood effectively run a few cottontails...KEY is a FEW...

Lets be real here. Really aggressive hard running dog WILL NOT perform at a high level on all cottontails....on a hare they can greatly increase there results. Hare are very much easier to run even when the conditions are extreme...again...my opinion.

The traits bred in cottontail hounds are not the same as the traits bred in hare hounds...I agree with that....BUT I believe, because I have seen it....there are lines that can cross this barrier with decent results. Other lines just don't ever get it. I would be MUCH more ready to say that a cottontail bred hound can excel on a hare at medium speed than would a hare bred hound run every cottontail with no checks and not "overpursue" in relation to scent.

Just my thoughts...good running to all.

[S.R.Patch]

I read all this and if I were one of no experience, I'd be totally baffled. On one hand, I read hare run like cottontails and on the other hand, cottontails can't run like hare. In my experience, cottontail do what succeeds for their environment. As a boy running the farm rabbits, 25 acres would cover their range. When I was introduced to the coalmine rabbits by Joe and Billy, it seemed that range quadrupled in size. Yes, there were crisscrosses and smaller loops within it, but the running was much bigger and faster and the rabbits knew where they were going.
What I've seen with the hare, yes they can run like cottontail, but these are usually the young hare of limited experience in youth. What I've seen a number of times is adult hare slipping off out of the area, as the hounds were creating a ruckus at the scent of fresh game. The adult hare would stir through the young hare to make their escape and the hounds would pursue the young hare that hadn't developed the art of escape through numbers yet. Early in the season, most hare taken are the young of the year as is proven by the tenderness of the meat of the lack of gamey taste. Later in the season, we'd always get bigger runs because a great number of these young had been killed off and hounds were more apt to hit and stay with the mature hare. A number of years when the cycle was low, we'd get big runs early in the season because the young were not there in numbers to interfere with the running.
To me, a good hound is a good hound. There are hounds that are better cottontail hound, and there are hounds that are better hare hounds. Really good ones can run either equally well, imho. I remember when I was trying to get HardRock(Peaches & Ivory's daddy) from Mike Claybaugh. He wound up going north to a fellow to run hare. I ask Mike what influenced his decision on placing the hound and he said, "Rock was a better hare hound than cottontail hound", Mike dearly loved a hound that could lock onto a rabbit and run it, so what he was telling me was, Rock was looser on track than what was required sometime to run a cottontail effectively and the consequences of that on hare were not so disruptive in the overall scheme of the pursuit.
I remember Randall saying Butts would take patch pups down to NC to get them their start on cottontail and then return them to North Creek. He believed these made better hounds because they learned early on(imprinting) the importance of staying close with the scent and adjusting their speed. He always said, accurate trailing must come first, then the faster it can be done, the better.
Hope everyone's hounds can cross that cottontail/hare divide...

[hlane]

sr patches first sentence - +1

[deerhost]

Shady grove, I agree. BCbeagles I agree somewhat with you but I think what I'm referring too is extremes of both kinds of hounds. Northern blood lines that are a ten on speed with a 30 yard check area and a souther cottontail hound that is a 3 or maybe 4 on speed. I have run the gamit I have had the super fast dog that couldn't stay on the rabbit and the super conservative cottontail hound that got stuck in the check and the race died. I now run a combination of both about medium speed or a half a step faster. Close on the line and check but not to close that they don't venture out to get the check. They are not perfect but I'm happy with them.,.. Dh

[adirondackjoe]

sorry guys but some of you read WAY too much into this. there is no difference between a hare hound or a cottontail dog. end of story. sometimes hares run big sometimes cottontails run big. depends on the cover and the time of year. like i said earlier if you have a good cottontail dog you will have a good hare hound. the only thing that changes are the scenting conditions. i have three dogs now that i got from my good friend bill who lives up buy the Canadian border. all three were well broke when i got them (bill has his own running grounds ) all three were started on and ran nothing but hares and when i brought them home to nj and took them out on cottontails they had NO trouble. it was like they had been running them all there lives and up until that point they had never even smelled one. my big dog mick(17 inches) was 4 years old when i got him. made no difference to him. a rabbits a rabbit. a beagles a beagle. no stop thinking about lines and crosses and whatever else you guys come up with. stop thinking so much, get out there and enjoy running your dogs.

[deerhost]

No offense Joe but you can't base your entire opinion on hounds just based on the 3 hounds you have that can run both......dh. Venture out a bit. Go too some clubs all over the state, up north and a bit south and then tell me there is no difference. I've watched some nice hare runs at some if the trials and then had there real honest owners tell me that dog is great but he can't gear down to run a cottontail..., anyway wasting too much time on here. Run what you like ....., stay safe

[hlane]

If any of you got a young female thats to hardhittin for ya im looking to purchase one if its bred right for me

[adirondackjoe]

deerhost. i did'nt base it on just the 3 i have now i based it on the dogs i've owned and run with over the last 50 years. good hearing from you anyway.

[Cooz's Beagles]

That's how majority of my dogs are bred. Branko\Colby Hill crossed with progressive pack breeding (weircreek x black creek). Good speed, hunt, nose, and control.
I have one female who is a PP champion but has also placed in AKC Midwest, arha little pack and UKC hunting heagle. I love my dogs to be quick but clean.
-------------
Kristina Cusimano
Cooz's Beagles
PP RCH Lone Pine Cooz's Swampin Sammi

[South Woods kennel]

Good dog will run a hare or cottontail! Might not be very pretty at times but they will get the job done! To each there own but i like em to roll a rabbit!

[Shady Grove Beagles]

I guess when all is said and done I agree with what Southwoods just posted.
Over the past 50 years I've spent an awful lot of time behind all kinds of hounds on all types of game chaseable.Bear,bobcat,coon,fisher,fox/coyote,squirrel and deer.
I want a hound that can roll! Just not very interested in the more conservative type.

[WELLS WOODS]

Speed with accuracy; It's harder for a hound to stay glued to a cottontail. They have to slow down more often & work a tighter check area. The coal mine rabbits do run bigger & hounds can stay in a higher gear more often than most other cottontail habitat. I think a good hound can run anywhere on hare or rabbit. I raised a litter in '98 & got the best line running rabbit dog I've ever had, Spring. Her brother IFC Stoneyhills Gator went north & won on hare several times & produced well in the NMHA, so there's proof that the same blood can do both.

[bill (flint river )]

Speed with accuracy; It's harder for a hound to stay glued to a cottontail. They have to slow down more often & work a tighter check area. The coal mine rabbits do run bigger & hounds can stay in a higher gear more often than most other cottontail habitat. I think a good hound can run anywhere on hare or rabbit. I raised a litter in '98 & got the best line running rabbit dog I've ever had, Spring. Her brother IFC Stoneyhills Gator went north & won on hare several times & produced well in the NMHA, so there's proof that the same blood can do both.

ya it's possible, but gator was smooth, he wasnt the fastes hound around, but a very good hound. i dont judge hounds by trials, that will screw u up fast. i judge by what i see. i have beagle since i was a young boy, close to 40 years i can remember, and threw thos years our best meat producer were a 5 to 6 on foot. they could run either and also run pheasant. when i started messing with patch hounds in my teens i had my first wide open, crazy, fun. the over runs on cotton tail didnt bother me, because when they could get it right they would scream a cotton tail. but on days when it was tough they looked bad, i have tryed schnaps,branko,pacesetter and others. the hounds that i call fast would always have a hard time on cotton tail when the running was bad. the upper med speed hounds could gear down and get the job done. trials hounds today are not the same as the dogs from 20 years ago. alot of the hard hunting, big nose hounds have ben pushed out.

[littlewoody]

Good dog will run a hare or cottontail! Might not be very pretty at times but they will get the job done! To each there own but i like em to roll a rabbit!

+1

[eddywilliams]

I would think dogs ran on hare if a quality hound and switched over at a younger age could make the transition, quicker hounds ran longer on hare some may never transition due to the different style .Imo I think nose power and brains has a lot to do with it and the handler that has the knowledge to identify it.