1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

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Ron Conroe
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by Ron Conroe »

Alabama John wrote:Most of the AKC champion dogs were not inbred or close kin. By far most Beagles hunted with are not either, they call it accidental bred and most kill the pups when born.

Once I saw a chart that showed the percentages of AKC champions that were not, and were. Of course a kennel would tout doing this as it sells more of their home bred pups and field trial dogs inbred from their high dollar dogs.

Big kennels are a business after all. Culling hard is spoken like its a science to see which pup is deformed or has various problems. Most 3rd graders could do just as well.

Why is doing this inbreeding against the law for humans? Should breeding like this make them better doctors, mechanics, runners, etc?

Don't get too caught up in the BS surrounding this as you can be easily mislead by the best salesman trying to impress you with their breeding knowledge and while at it try to make you seem stupid for not agreeing.

Ever see the movie Deliverance?
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S.R.Patch
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by S.R.Patch »

Don't think any of them creek boys were related, Fish, Pearson, Clear or Yellar.
We only took women from other tribes as the white women were considered inferior.
Ever see the movie Deliverance?

hlane
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by hlane »

Ned Beatty made for a hell of an outcross! In them boys eyes! bringin that coi down a little
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WELLS WOODS
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by WELLS WOODS »

Tracing back some old pedigrees of famous hounds, looks like breeders had success with many different breeding methods. Today, our Mid-West FC's are not inbred or linebred really close for the most part, but a large percentage of them share some common ancestors within 5 or 6 generations & I'd bet all of them have some close linebreeding somewhere in their sire or dam's ancestry.
Last edited by WELLS WOODS on Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shady Grove Beagles
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by Shady Grove Beagles »

I've been following this post with some interest as I'm always interested in any discusion when it comes to breeding methods.
Let me state right here at the beginning that I am no expert in these matters but I do consider myself a student of the practice and over many years have tried to read and accumulate as much info. from reliable sources as I can.I am a definite believer and practicer of linebreeding but have never done any inbreeding.
I am not taking any stance here as to what is good,bad ,right or wrong but thought it might prove very interesting to share what some "experts" and very knowledgeable houndsmen have had to say over the years regarding this subject.
So here goes........
The Standard Book of Dog Breeding-Dr.Alvin Grossman DVM "In-breeding is regarded as a most valuable tool to fix a desired type and purify a strain.In-breeding can reduce genotype and phenotype to one common ancester".
Dog Owners Veterinary Handbook-Dr.Delbert G.Carlson DVM. and Dr.JamesM.Giffin MD. "A common misconception is that in-breeding causes higstrung,nervous and aggressive dogs. Because two individuals are closely related does not mean that their offspring are going to be unsound. It is the genetic potential in the background of the pair which determines the outcome".
Beeding A Strain Of Better Beagles-Tom and Velta Dornin [originators of the Little Ireland strain]-"An out cross is only needed when you are not satisfied with what you have.How do you think nature avoids in-breeding? She doesn't avoid it.She simply culls severely when something goes wrong".
Dog Genetics-How To Breed Better Dogs-Dr Carmelo Battaglia DVM.-"It is perhaps of some value to note that the true relationship between two dogs is derermined by the similarity of their chromosomes and genes,not by the similarity of labels such as brother,sister,coisin or uncle.The earlier breeders observed that in-breeding worked.However, they also noticed that great progress was achieved along with the occurance of poor results.Because in-breeding tends to double up on things,that is to concentrate both faults and good points".
This Is The Beagle-Dr.George D.Whitney DVM.-In-breeding is practiced in every other field of genetics-with cattle,poultry,other breeds of dog-with excellent resulys.It must, however, always be undertaken with extremely careful selection,as all traits,good and bad,are magnified by it".
The New Complete Beagle-Lew Madden and other contributors-" In-breeding,is the mating together of closely related animals-father to daughter,mother to son,brother to sister,half brother to half sister.Some of the best animals ever produced have been produced from such matings,and the danger from such practices,if they are carried out bypersons who know what they are about ,is minimal".
Breeding Better Beagles-Rev.John Parks-The primary effect of in-breeding is to increase the probability that the offspring will inherit the same qualities from boyh the sire and the dam.It lowers thepercentage ofheterozygous [ different ] genes, and raises the percentage of homozygous [similar ] genes.By doing this,it may bring to the suface recessive genes which would otherwise remain hidden. It is the surest way of making the most of superior animals.But,it may bring out as many undesireable traits as it does desireable".
New Guide To Breeding Old Fashioned Working Dogs-Guy Gregory Ormiston-"The records of Guide Dogs for the Blind indicate that these folks in-bred more intensely than feccomended at the time and for more generations than ever before attempted.Physical deterioration and idiocy did not develope,though they were warned or it's inevitability.They actually observed and fecorded positive advancements in reproduction dependability.Records show a 60-65% acceptance rate of those in-bred dogs as they reached training age,as opposed to only 30% of acceptance of dogs taken from the general population.A couple of other interesting observations which came out of this 25 year study were,that the best litters of Guide Dogs came from father x daughter matings.The best line of brood bitches came from a son x mother matings".
Call Of The Hounds-Del Cameron [ one of the pioneers of professional lion and bear hunting in the northern Rockies and a full time professional giude in Montana for 35 years ]-"From as far back as the 1960's I family- bred my hounds to concentrate the qualities I wanred and tio maintain those dominate traits.I line-bred extensively and did some in-breeding,half brother to half sister producing the best results of doubling and tripling desired charecteristics.Most of my breeding was family- centered around outstanding individuals.I often bred uncle to niece,nepher to niece and cousin to cousin,all having the same common ancesters that were of outstanding quality.An out cross to me was one in which the outcrossed individual had at least half of it's ancestors in common with mine".
Planned Breeding-Lloyd Brackett-"The advantages of in-breeding is that of holding and making the greatest use of the excellance of a single animal;in other words,preserving rather than originating greatness.The hazard of in-breeding is that while it intensifies the traits and charecteristics that we are looking for,it also intensifies any bad.It is imperative that the breeder who in-breeds practices an intense-selection program.
In-breeding does not create faults,it just brings them to the surface so that the breeder can more readily deal with them".
Brackett practiced in-breeding extensively with grand results,earning the title of Mr.German Shepard producing over 90 champions in twelve years through in-breeding.
Western Varmint Hunting-breeding articles by Al Lynn-"Such relationships such as btother to sister,cousin to cousin,etc. may mean little or may mean much depending on how much alike the mates are in the arrangement of their genes.
In-breeding will produce more good pups per litter and it will show you which ones to cull as breeders.The pedigree is reduced to one or two lines of decent.A breeder can tell from what dog the good or bad qualities come and he can more easily control them.
If we want to develope and maintain a strain then some form of in-breeding will be absolutely neccesary.
If you choose not to seek a strain then why in-breed? You have a good chance of getting as good or better dogs by outcrossing than by in-breeding,however if you get that hot cross by outcrossing some form of in-breeding will be needed to maintain and establish it's influence to future generations".

Well ther you go.....just some food for thought.
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hlane
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by hlane »

Check out Mendal,s Law of Heredity also if ya want to read up on it.
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Shady Grove Beagles
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by Shady Grove Beagles »

Didn't Mendel do all his genetics research on peas?Beagles are much more interesting.Don't you think????
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hlane
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by hlane »

Shady Grove Beagles wrote:Didn't Mendel do all his genetics research on peas?Beagles are much more interesting.Don't you think????
Not realy sure about the peas. But i think Mendal was twisted with some of his comments/comparisons like on how a man should
go about choosing a wife!!! So at least some of his stuff pertained to animals. and is nothing i would follow
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Alabama John
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by Alabama John »

Most that breed any way (best to best, inbreed, outcross, line breed) will get a great dog every now and then.

What most folks don't like is having to kill pups or other dogs (cull hard) that come out screwed up.

A good question to ask when a close bred dog is winning is how were the other siblings from the litter. If all were killed (culled) for various problems I wouldn't want to breed to it to get that in my pups. Being screwed up is passed just like the good hopefully is.

Go with the odds!

Most folks would just rather have a litter they can hunt with and be happy.

swing
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by swing »

HOF GR R CH TK's Roundmountain Jake was a half brother half sister cross, was entered in 2 AKC trials and won them both.
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hlane
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by hlane »

Mendal advised that a man should not marry a woman if she had one bad sibling ! kind of twisted IMO . with dogs if the majority
of a litter made good thats good enough for me.
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Yettez_Beagles21
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Re: 1/2 sister 1/2 brother crosses

Post by Yettez_Beagles21 »

My male Cane is a1/2 brother 1/2 sister cross and he has done very well for us and has a lot of the good traits from that line that I really like.
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