Doubled up Trails

[RollingTrack]

Has anyone made a cross of trails up close top and bottom?
I have heard double gator u lose it nose power! Any opinion? Thanks

[WELLS WOODS]

Oliver is your Gator dog to use in my opinion. Dan Johnson has doubled up on Gator with his hounds without using Trails with great success.
I will admit that one of the best hounds I've seen was by Trails, Scott Music's Bella. He was a great running hound; had the looks, ability; just didn't produce very well on average.
And your right; I don't think Gator produced winners by giving them a lot of nose power, he put a tremendous amount of brains. talent & desire in his hounds. He had enough nose, but bred to bitches with big noses, you had a hound with all the tools. Gator produced around 10 FC's in the Northern Michigan Hare Association; most were big bitches. One male in the cross with Jerry Jo Agate was Oliver. He is a proven producer; already numerous FC's & Better Beagling's Sire of the year.

[Crow]

ive owned 4 dogs out of trails & 3 different females. All 4 are outstanding rabbit dogs but not "champion material". Unfortunately there is a difference. Just depends on what someone is looking for IMO. If you want a nice gun dog that will consistently run hard and steady day after day then he is a great stud. If you're looking for the next household name champion dog honestly you may be better looking somewhere else. Personally I don't trial, I pleasure hunt, and nearly all of the most pleasurable hunting I've had have been with a pack of dogs made up of about 2/3's trails offspring. I'm glad they didn't have "the right stuff" for Mid-West or I would've never had the opportunity to own them.

[WELLS WOODS]

I'm glad you like your Trails dogs. That is all that matters if they are good hunting dogs. Just saying as much as he was bred, there were few as good as he was. I raised Gator & am going to use a FC Trails bitch to breed & am very excited. All I'm after is a solid hunting dog too, but I only know of 2 AKC FC's by Trails & he was promoted hard as a stud hound.

[Crow]

Wells, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I've not heard of very many FC's either. I personally own 3 out of Trails right now. They are all very good gun dogs but we're sold to me because they were not going to win consistently in AKC. 2 of the 3 were trialed and placed multiple times but just didn't have "it", whatever "it" is, to win so I ended up with them.

Again, I don't think we are saying different things, I just think we probably do different things. Again if I were seriously into trialing I probably look at a different stud myself. There's nothing wrong with trialing at all, I just don't care for it. I know there is a list of outstanding rabbit dogs that are FC's or IFC's and the like so I'm not saying all champions are not rabbit dogs. I'm just saying an outstanding rabbit dog and a dog that's gonna win consistently in AKC seem to be a very rare thing. I'm only looking for the former so I try to stack the deck that way. Others are looking for only the latter so they try to stack it that way. Some are looking for both. To them I say good luck & keep up the good work because it is certainly a difficult thing to achieve for sure.

[rabbithunter5890]

The few I have seen had weak hunt and tight mouth. Good mannered dogs in the kennel though

[RollingTrack]

Other than Scott's Bella female ,what fc(nice) females do u kno that's been breed to him that's produced average..? Just couious nvr really seen anything on the female side other than a rabbit dog..

[Crow]

The few I have seen had weak hunt and tight mouth. Good mannered dogs in the kennel though

Hunt is something I'm very hard to be satisfied with. Probably the single most area that causes me to dislike a dog (short of trash). All 4 of the ones I have owned have satisfied and regularly actually impress me with their hunt. We're in an area that it's not uncommon to hunt an hour or more between races in most places. That has not been an issue I have personally saw. I will say the only first hand experience I have with his pups are the ones that I currently or have owned. There is another one here in town that is a litter mate to 2 I own & according to her owner hunt & jumping are her strong suites. Maybe I've just been lucky but nose and mouth have also not been an issue in my experience. I do have one that gets tight in a big pack but 4 or 5 or less and it pours out. Over that she uses it less but still gives plenty enough to know she's in there.

[WELLS WOODS]

Lot of people bred to him. Don Hoog had him at his house & bred his fine bitches.

[Snowshoe Run]

I always wondered if doubling up on the bottom side of Trails was the way to go? I have never seen him or any of the dogs in his pedigree run but I do own a male out of him that is an outstanding gun dog. I have heard that the Skunk dog had an excellent snow nose. If true, what else was he bred to and how did that cross turn out? Has anyone gone in this direction with Trails? I have nothing against Gator either but this is something I have wondered about and thought this may be a good time to ask. Would this put the nose power back into his line?

[RollingTrack]

That' was my thoughts allso! Just was asking maybe save me the time, that's all.. Thanks guys!

[Pine Lakes]

Lot of people bred to him. Don Hoog had him at his house & bred his fine bitches. Nothing. Great hound; not a producer, but I would take a "good" one by him anyday, but they are few & far between.

You are actually wrong here Greg. He had one that was really nice but ripped her guts out on a fence. She was taken to the vet and stitched up. Hoogy give her time to heal before taking her out again, but the same thing happened & she had to be put down. I had a male out of Trails & Murphy's Little Mandy(FC Sullivan's Go Joe) that had all the tools. He was a little rough as a young dog but was certainly a well above average hound. I'm not saying Trials is an alltime producer, but he certainly doesn't deserve to labeled as producing "nothing". Females out him seem to be producing very well from what I've seen.

[WELLS WOODS]

You are right, Chip, I shouldn't have used the word nothing. He has thrown some good hounds, but not nearly what most of us anticipated with his ability & bloodline. The good ones sired by Trails are definitely valuable to the breed & I would be proud to see his name in my hound's pedigree. Nick Birmingham's young bitch that just won in Michigan is actually out of a Trail's bitch that I bred. I don't think I would build a kennel around him or linebreed him & expect great things though.

About Gator's nose : Don't get me wrong, IFC Stoney Hills Gator had a very good nose I was told by John Dewyse. A dog is not going to consistently win & place in the frigid U. P. of Michigan & Canada without having plenty nose. I was just saying the cross between Baba Louie & Robin( Gator's sire & dam) produced a massive amount of intelligence, talent & ability to get the job done under the tremendous amount of pack pressure of the large pack on hare trials. Gator produced enough brains that you could add plenty of nose with a bitch without worrying about the offspring being mouthy. Gator was one of the few great hounds that produced better hounds than he was himself. IFC Riley's Rolling Trails won every where they took him, but very few hounds are going to be great producers. I am personally more familiar with Trail's bottom side than I am with Oliver's. Trail's grandsire on his dam's side, Clarence Shaw's Skunk was the most dominating big male I've ever seen run. I saw him actually run a rabbit 50 yards in front of the rest of the pack for 30 minutes or so in first series & went on to win rather convincingly that day I judged him at Westland. I think that trial went two days; 52 big males & we finished the winners pack the next morning. As good as he was, I don't know how much Skunk was bred, but Trail's dam, FC RJ's Tall Tails & her sister were the only FC's I can remember by him. All the great running hounds are unfortunately going to be forgotten after a while, & only the great reproducers will be remembered. A lot of the top producer's offspring tend to produce well also, thus keeping their name alive through the pedigrees of the great hounds of the future.

[Pine Lakes]

Personally for me, I would never double up on Trails. I will readily admit that I have seen some that were on the tight side with the mouth and for that reason alone I wouldn't double up on it. When I say double up, I mean both the sire and the dam being directly out of him. On the other hand you won't see me double up on anything because I don't like inbreeding. I prefer line breeding. I raised one litter out of Trials and it was a very nice litter with a couple placing hounds from it. Crow, as he goes by on this board, purchased his male and female from me. The female I bred to Trails has a huge nose and can have extra mouth if not ran up, but that is exactly what I would breed to Trails. He cleans them up nicely.

The same female I bred to Trails was bred to a male out of IFC Stoneyhills Gator & Wazny's Cold Cash Biscuit(FC Lake Ogemaw Casey & Larsen's Jill) with better results. The difference between the 2 litters is there are a couple of dogs from the second male that have the power to really stand out. The dogs out of Trails were solid upper medium with plenty of hunt, nose, line control, and bottom to be there. To be honest, I've seen lesser dogs finish.

I don't know if you're interested, but I own a male out of IFC Stoneyhill's Gator & FC On The Fritz & Outta Time. He has placed a few times and is a really nice dog. Big strong male that I would like to see some pups out of. I give half of him to a friend of mine just south of Dayton. If you think he would fit into your program you are more than welcome to use him. I haven't spoken to my buddy about it, but from my view it wouldn't cost a thing. He is 6 so you have time to use him.

[WELLS WOODS]

Thanks Chip; What's the dam's pedigree? I've seen that bitch, FC On The Fritz & Outta Time a lot in the NMHA trial results. I'll definitely keep him in mind. Probably aren't too many males directly by Gator left. Bob King's had a lot of nice dogs, but none have produced as well as his Gator male,NLPC IFC Cedar Beck Oliver from the famous Townline kennel. Their 15" bitch, same cross as Oliver, NLPC FC Townline's Foxy Fancy also won the AKC Large Pack Nationals. I wonder how many kennels can say that; two mates to win the Nationals. Two other mates, IFC Big Creek Nice Cream & IFC Townline's Honey Bea may have won it also or came close anyway. Townline kennels is owned by Albert & Annabelle Yaunke of Ontonagon, Michigan.