Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Great post JCM. I cant really answer your question,i got an opinion. My first thought would be 10 sec checks would start turning into 8 sec checks. I believe guys are short checking now. Its easy to do, you come off a hard run, you start breathing heavy, you start counting fast. I catch myself doing it all the time. I rather see a guy score a consistent 13-14 sec check, rather then a fast 7-8 sec check.( Altough their not following the rules) Also as a judge I relay on that 15 sec to catch up. If the dogs are running, let them run. There is nothing to score.
I have judged many cast, where a dog got every 12 sec check in the race, but never made the score card. Was they the best dog in the race? No. I agree it might promote a cleaner running hound, but they already have those formats. If you run 40-50 minutes of a cast, the best dog will rise to the top no matter how long the check is.
My personal favorite check to score is those long money checks, you know the kind I mean. Joe Shmoes dog runs the pack 80 yds off the end, blows the track into pieces. Who has the brains to come back and recover. I don't see much difference myself in 10-15 sec. But 15 sec is all I know.
My personal vendetta right now is the garmins. As a judge you have a lot of responsibilitys, first and most important is to put the hounds in a hunting situation and score them. Other things is watch out for dangers, keep the handlers together, make sure you have your whole cast, and keep the hunt moving. Bill Gildersleeve 68 yrs old, can't catch his hound. Every time you handle you wait 5-10 minutes for him. What advantage would he have pulling out his garmin and saying he's 120 yds that way. I would gladly help him catch that hound. I think there would be less time outs and we would see a difference in between cast time.
As far as hunting and handling- I personally could careless who handled better. Maybe that other dog is hunting a little deeper. If 2 dogs hunt the exact same, I take into consideration, who had the most short checks, who jumped a rabbit on a time out, who barked less in the check area, who ran the most track. All thoughs things play a part in my tie breaker.
I have judged many cast, where a dog got every 12 sec check in the race, but never made the score card. Was they the best dog in the race? No. I agree it might promote a cleaner running hound, but they already have those formats. If you run 40-50 minutes of a cast, the best dog will rise to the top no matter how long the check is.
My personal favorite check to score is those long money checks, you know the kind I mean. Joe Shmoes dog runs the pack 80 yds off the end, blows the track into pieces. Who has the brains to come back and recover. I don't see much difference myself in 10-15 sec. But 15 sec is all I know.
My personal vendetta right now is the garmins. As a judge you have a lot of responsibilitys, first and most important is to put the hounds in a hunting situation and score them. Other things is watch out for dangers, keep the handlers together, make sure you have your whole cast, and keep the hunt moving. Bill Gildersleeve 68 yrs old, can't catch his hound. Every time you handle you wait 5-10 minutes for him. What advantage would he have pulling out his garmin and saying he's 120 yds that way. I would gladly help him catch that hound. I think there would be less time outs and we would see a difference in between cast time.
As far as hunting and handling- I personally could careless who handled better. Maybe that other dog is hunting a little deeper. If 2 dogs hunt the exact same, I take into consideration, who had the most short checks, who jumped a rabbit on a time out, who barked less in the check area, who ran the most track. All thoughs things play a part in my tie breaker.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I agree on the Garmin, not only to speed up the hunts but also in the case of a deer race. How far away is the dog if you have to walk 200 yards back to the truck to get your hand-held? PP allows units in the field and I don't think cheating is rampant there. If someone is going to cheat, they'll find a way. I'll admit, I have forgot to take my unit out of my coat pocket a time or two at the truck. It stayed in my pocket the entire cast. I'm sure I'm not the only one who forgets. Most judges don't give handle that much weight, even in a tie. They look at other factors as mentioned.
Larry
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
How about creating software for garmin to do the judging, the collar picks up when a dog barks ,and by linking the five collars and when the dogs bark , the rabbit track could be created , the dog that leads the pack and runs the most track wins , shure would save a lot of running for judges. Dont we all kinda already do that when out running dogs
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I agree the hunting and handling rule needs to be adjusted. if you have two Hounds tied for 1st and the tiebreaker rules does not break the tie (example both Hounds have 1 strike and 2 checks) then I think both hounds should move on to the next series. If you have a cast that has no running and all five dogs are tied with 0 that's when the hunting and handling rule would come into effect. Jmo
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Wow I can't believe you guys want to let tech knowledge run and judge your dogs for you. He'll just take them to the trial drop them off and go back 5or6 hours later to pick them up, then you all look at the collars and pick a winner. What the hell is the world coming to. We are supposed to run our dogs for enjoyment.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Not all of us Ron. I enjoy just being there whether it's my dog or not. It's like guys who own dogs but let someone else do the training and conditioning or someone else bring them to the trial. What do they get out of it? I may not have the best dogs, but they make me proud when they do well and I get a feeling of accomplishment.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I see changes coming by the comments on here.
Anyone thought of what those changes will do to the breedings of Beagles?
Those studs and lines now popular will be no good and new ones will become the ones to breed to.
Was there when this happened years ago when trials started from the Brace beagles and what a mess for a while. Old kennels died off and new ones emerged in a short time.
In ARHA I'll bet the real rabbit dogs folks use for hunting rabbits will come to the front when these changes are settled on.
All check creating and then recovering them dogs will disappear quick.
Anyone thought of what those changes will do to the breedings of Beagles?
Those studs and lines now popular will be no good and new ones will become the ones to breed to.
Was there when this happened years ago when trials started from the Brace beagles and what a mess for a while. Old kennels died off and new ones emerged in a short time.
In ARHA I'll bet the real rabbit dogs folks use for hunting rabbits will come to the front when these changes are settled on.
All check creating and then recovering them dogs will disappear quick.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
As I said before I like the idea of the check time being shortened I also agree with Mike about being able to use a Garmin I hate waiting around for someone to handle a dog I also hate being the one looking for my dog holding up the cast. I really like Chris' s idea on the hunting and handling as a judge I hate being put in the position of breaking a tie some great ideas that I believe would improve this format
Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I agree Chris, great idea. I would really like to see that applied out the World Hunt. You could possibly have 2 dogs very capable of making some noise out there.
Its a shame that only one dog moves on do to a man's opinion.
Saturday I will be judging all day, Hubbard, Ohio.
I am going to pay closer attention to the 10 sec dog, then give you another opinion.
Its a shame that only one dog moves on do to a man's opinion.
Saturday I will be judging all day, Hubbard, Ohio.
I am going to pay closer attention to the 10 sec dog, then give you another opinion.
Mike Conti
Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
It's most likely a matter of time with the technology of today at some point GPS and tracking systems will be used in trial formats in some way.With the LP hounds of today if the time was shortened to 10 sec.how would anyone be able to stay up on them to score it unless they were on horse back.And then it would be tough.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I hate the hunting and handling rule both as a judge and a handler, 2 guys train and haul their dogs to a big 5 hunt both are nice dogs they draw out together where both dogs score 4 checks a piece and tie for 1st in the cast, it's a tough situation to tell one guy that he lost because you like how the other dog hunted better than his.
Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
My opinion from a guy that runs and judges Midwest trials and has ran some little pack years ago.
I never understood needing a certain amount of time to score a check. Just like scoring a dog that turns out of the pack with the rabbit, he gets no score in little pack. Even if the rest of the pack swings around and then hits the track 50 yards away.
Then you guys can only bring 1 dog out of each pack. Your tie breakers and hunt and handling rule definitely need changed.
About Garmins, if you think you can figure out how to score with them, forget it. The collars don't update at the same exact time and who is going to be responsible for watching the screen for an hour to call it right. You can sit on the tailgate and think a dog is killing the pack, but if it never shuts up in the check how will you ever know looking at a Garmin screen.
Again, my opinion
I never understood needing a certain amount of time to score a check. Just like scoring a dog that turns out of the pack with the rabbit, he gets no score in little pack. Even if the rest of the pack swings around and then hits the track 50 yards away.
Then you guys can only bring 1 dog out of each pack. Your tie breakers and hunt and handling rule definitely need changed.
About Garmins, if you think you can figure out how to score with them, forget it. The collars don't update at the same exact time and who is going to be responsible for watching the screen for an hour to call it right. You can sit on the tailgate and think a dog is killing the pack, but if it never shuts up in the check how will you ever know looking at a Garmin screen.
Again, my opinion
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I learned very quickly that just because your dog is making noise, it doesn't mean he's scoring. I remember a guy who commented every time he heard his dog "Yup, Ol' Blue got that check." When the scores were read Ol' Blue's only score was a -10. Never forgot that.
Larry
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I see some Midwest guys posting on here maybe we need to start a new thread on what needs changed in it....
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Just a thought, but maybe the Midwest guys still have some interest in Little Pack but the dogs have changed.Chimney Rock Kennel wrote:I see some Midwest guys posting on here maybe we need to start a new thread on what needs changed in it....
For a long time Midwest and Little Pack dogs were alike. Now, I think there is more and more difference because Little Pack dogs are so rough. With entries declining so much at all the local ARHA hunts, I wonder how much of that is because dogs owned by rabbit hunters, and guys that trial in the Midwest don't fit in as well in Little Pack?
That is where I think scoring 10 second checks would help. It would reward better rabbit dogs and bring back a lot of people that have quit coming to hunts.
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