Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?

[sparky]

Just a thought, but maybe the Midwest guys still have some interest in Little Pack but the dogs have changed.

For a long time Midwest and Little Pack dogs were alike. Now, I think there is more and more difference because Little Pack dogs are so rough. With entries declining so much at all the local ARHA hunts, I wonder how much of that is because dogs owned by rabbit hunters, and guys that trial in the Midwest don't fit in as well in Little Pack?

That is where I think scoring 10 second checks would help. It would reward better rabbit dogs and bring back a lot of people that have quit coming to hunts.

It's been 10 years or so since I've been to a lil pack trial,but if the rule was changed to a shorter check (preferably 5 secs) it would spark my interest to check it out again. As far as judges having to keep up better with the pack in order to score shorter checks,isn't that a good thing? The more a judge sees of the dog work the better in my opinion,it will probably make their job a little harder,but most judges that love judging dogs probably wont mind putting forth more effort to keep up,nobody's perfect I'm sure there will be a few checks missed here an there,but that's just part of the game,as long as a man does his best and advances the best dog within that hour then that's all that really matters.

[Rowco Beagle Kennels]

It seems to me that most of the questions we have about Little Pack would be resolved if the judges faithfully and consistently adhered to the policy statement which covers why we have this format:
The Board of Directors of the American Rabbit Hound Association has developed the following policy statement:

"It is our desire that the ARHA can bring a rabbit hound that will be exactly like the type of dog that you would select to take hunting. It is our intention, in interpretation of rules and policies, that all ARHA clubs will conduct competition hunts in a uniform manner. More importantly, competition events will remain a family fun event that is free of dissent and preferential treatment for any person or group."
EXAMPLE: So many judges say they pay no attention to handling when judging "hunting and handling." Be honest: who among us wants to spend his day off in misery because he or his buddy took a dog hunting that won't handle, refuses to move, or honor other dogs. I have seen this often in Little Pack while at home I have refused to hunt with a dog who controls where and how I hunt rather than the hunters.

Another consideration is the constant and excessive handling of the dogs. I enjoy being a spectator but cannot handle anymore due to an injury and my age. I turned 70 this week. I actually think the 10 second rule would change the kind of dogs brought eventually and would therefore require less handling. Bobby (better known around my house as "Papa.")

[stavemillbeagles]

EXAMPLE: So many judges say they pay no attention to handling when judging "hunting and handling." Be honest: who among us wants to spend his day off in misery because he or his buddy took a dog hunting that won't handle, refuses to move, or honor other dogs. I have seen this often in Little Pack while at home I have refused to hunt with a dog who controls where and how I hunt rather than the hunters.

I understand what your saying but a lot of the judges have to send their dog with someone in the cast so they can judge a different cast, most of my dogs handle good but they will handle better for me than with someone they don't know.

[island ridge hounds]

after reading the post i have my opinion which aint worth nothing. i do know when you start changing rules it's usually because it will suit someone else's hound's better. there will always be short checks from a hound which in my opinion is the rabbit dog that were most likely after. when giving hunting and handling points to a hound if it comes down to it, i always go with the hound with the most short checks, just makes since. handling for the judge's i understand, but think is a last resort to picking a hound in a cast as a winner. it's just one step above flipping a coin and sometimes i think the coin flip is fairer. i'm still wondering why judges don't minus hounds, i know some do but over the mass amount of judges we have most don't. it's a rule to minus a dog so if your not going to minus the dog why plus him. some of these dogs are getting so fast i'm thinking we may need a twenty second check. dogs are being judged behind a faster dog and if they get to far ahead they'll make you go get him even when the other dog's are running the same rabbit. there may be changes need but lets not get the cart before the hound.

[The Asphalt Man]

Very well said stavemill beagles.

[JCM]

Unless I missed it, I really haven't seen any argument about how waiting 15 seconds to score a check brings back the best dog or betters the breed. With entries at an all time low at local hunts, and all the support on here, I wonder what it would take for ARHA and the Little Pack Board to consider changing the time to score a check?

[Aubrey Holcombe]

Likeemfast, I need to talk with this old boy. Bruce Lord, he is from Boiling Springs, Pa.

Anyone on this web sight that knows his phone or E-mail A.D. please send me a P.M.

Thanks a bunch!
D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>

[Tuff-E-Nuff]

I have read most but not all of this tread, while I wouldn't mind seeing check time dropped from 15 to 10 sec I don't think it would change the type/style of dog that comes back the winner table at all.
As far as this change making ARHA LP bigger and better ?? LOL it must already be the best since there is no doubt its the largest in the nation.

[JacksonBoys]

We believe a true check is when a pack quits making forward progress. About 2 1/2 seconds!

[mybeagles]

We believe a true check is when a pack quits making forward progress. About 2 1/2 seconds!

In my world, 15 seconds is a loss not a check. Im trying to think of a valid reason why dogs would break down multiple times in 1 hour for 15 seconds or longer and the only thing that comes to mind is faulty, over competitive hounds. As a Mid-West judge if a pack was repeatedly having 15 second break downs the front end dogs would likely be going to the club house.

The bigger issue I had with my limited experience with LP was the dogs clearly leaving the track to swing 50+ yards to gain an advantage on pack mates without penalty. If dogs refuse to pack and just run wild all over the woods the majority of rabbit hunters will not be interested in attending. As its set up now it caters to guys that like fast, rough hounds. If any changes are made to correct that you will lose entries on the other side of the spectrum. When the Mid-West got carried away with speed about 10 years ago entries started dropping like flies. They have come back to the base in my opinion and with proper judge selections draw a pretty good crowd from pretty long distances in all directions.

I know many will disagree, but for the most part the BIG Time very successful field trialers year in and year out are far more concerned about breeding and selecting hounds that will win field trials than they are selecting hounds that are best for hunting. This is true for all formats and associations. Its not to say a field trial dog can't be hunted or hunting dog can't be field trailed.....But the way to be successful in field trials is to base your selection process on what fits a trial format best.

[rabbitearl]

I would say it don t matter what kind of second in a check is as long as a judge can stay on top of the pack the hold time. Looking at haft of the run would not work in any kind of second. To me I like a 5 min check. What dog is going to stay in there to find it. I judge a trial one time and as soon as the rabbit was jump it was no time they already lost it. Dogs were popping out in no time not staying in there to look for it. I said. These dogs that have pop out pick them up. I looking a dog that will not give up. There s your rabbit dog. I am a rabbit hunter. I like (love) a dog that will not give up. So to me there s going to be a hard check. Will it stay in there to find it.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Mybeagles
I am in total agreement with your most recent post. When I moved to Tn. 20 years ago I got involved in the ARHA Little Pack trials because they were the only game in town for the kind of beagles I ran.
The only AKC trials held in this state were UBGF SPO or brace trials and I definitely have no interest in those types of beagles.
I ended up getting my Little Pack judges license and eventually my Masters of Hounds license and over a 12 year period was very active on the trials circuit competing and judging.
For the life of me I could never figure out the rational of awarding dogs 25 points every time they lost their rabbit and had that much of a breakdown to find it again.Most times the dogs were creating their own checks !

[mybeagles]

I would say it don t matter what kind of second in a check is as long as a judge can stay on top of the pack the hold time.

Earl,

Im in pretty good shape and like to think I can run with the best of them (with the exception of Farmdog, he is in a league all by himself). No way can you stay on top of the pack and hold the line. The exception would be dogs repeatedly breaking down for 15 seconds over and over. In MidWest trials dogs often hold a line across entire fields or sections and it happens fast. They run 2-3 times faster than a human and thats assuming your not navigating any brush. I get your point, if you were able to see everything you should always make right decisions but I think your asking an awful lot of judges to be able to stay in step with the dogs all day long. 8+ hours of sprinting through brush.

My philosophy is to get as many lines, checks, drives as possible and draw the conclusion that the same dogs are scoring when you can't see it.

[S.R.Patch]

25yr ago I went to my first LP trial they was some old men and fat boys judging them hounds. Very few could stay up on them hounds and see rabbits and hound work. But the one thing they all had to their advantage was, they was "rabbit wise". Yes sir, like an old hound will get rabbit wise to stay in on the hunt, they had a knack for picking up on the lay of the land and a eye for cover and knowing a rabbits habits. Their ear was always tuned to the sound of the pack and any change of direction to cut ahead. They got to see alot of the rabbits and the hounds coming through on the line. I know it sounds backwards from today's method but they judged from the front mostly, seeing the rabbit, then the hounds.
I went to the island hare hunt one time and meet up with Doug Bragg, JB Maynard and Don Smith. Well them boys was hound judges and they hunted like they judged, you could hardly get circle back before they had cut the hare 4 or 5 times and took a shot...lol... when the hounds struck in on a line, them boys were gone. We walked all day trying to keep up with them. They was cut-ups and a lot of fun to be around and hunt with.
You get local boys that hunt the area and they'll know where ole Molly is leading them hounds towards and they'll be there waiting when the check is made and pencil meets the paper...jmho

[rabbitearl]

Oh no I not asking a lot out of the judges the rules are. If it was me I be only looking for a 1 min check. Or a lost. Then what dog is going to stay in there and find that hard check.

I started a lp club here in 91. It got harder and harder to find a judge in shape to stay on these dogs. I feel for anybody that judge a lp all day. I can t do it. But when you have that seconds in a check we are asking a lot for a judge to do. I just feel like if a judge cannot be on top of the dogs at all time then put the sec out and just look at the lost.

This happen at our club after two years. Like I say its hard enough to find a good judge. But when someone comes from 7 hr to a young club like ours that has no CH and bring 3 CH to make one grand CH but to his surprise somebody else bring 2 CH an wins He gets mad and tell the judges, the club, how sorry they were. Well That was our last lp trial. We all have never done or been to another LP trial. I believe there s not enough thank you to a judge or the club an members.