dog training meeting with john goss in indy

[Guest]

The 2pm meeting in DNR Director John Goss office went somewhat as follows;

In attendance was John Goss,DNR director, John Davis, deputy director, Glen Lange, Chief of Biology for DNR, Glen Salmon, Director of Fish and Wildlife, also attending was the head of parks for the state, and I must admit I have forgotten his name, Mike Jackson Mike Small both IFTA members and avid bird dog sportsmen, Dick Mercier, President Indiana sportsman's Roundtable, Doug Allman who presented himself as representing both the IDHA and the Wildlife Federation, Paula Yeager, Indiana wildlife Federation, and myself, Jack Hyden, Indiana Beaglers alliance, representing all of you that could not be in attendance.

The meeting lasted just less than two hours, and I must say it was rather rough around the edges at times. the subject of field trials was discussed for a short period and it was determined that suitable land needed to be found and then dollars needed to be located to buy it. there were good points brought up by the IFTA fellows, but nothing concrete was decided.

Training on private ground was discussed with John Davis and Glen Lange both attempting to come down on me for spreading that DNR was looking at private land for restrictions also. Fortunately Mike Small brought a copy of the DNR wild bulletin that said that DNR biologists would be specifically looking at state and private land. It was agreed that was in error and a retraction should be forthcoming in a DNR Wildbulletin.

the dog training restrictions that IDNR are hoping to propose were detailed more specifically. Glen Lange presented a couple of papers that were supposed to support DNR in its position. At most they showed that DNR had precedence to make dog training changes, but also showed that their was precedence to not make changes and that of those states that do make changes there is definitely precedence to leave large designated dog training areas open on a year round basis. It was interesting that the states that Glen Lange presented included Kansas which the paper states has no organized restrictions , but leave it up to the property managers..... I find it difficult to believe that any property manager in Kansas would restrict or close dog training since KANSAS HAS NO CLOSED RABBIT SEASON WHAT SO EVER. Rabbit season is open 12 months a year. the paper also failed to reveal that Ohio keeps its dog running areas open year round and advertises that they are there and that a well conditioned dog means more game in the bag and less lost. it also failed to mention that Michigan has a liberal running pen permit system and that those working their dogs in running pens do not need a hunting license.

Doug Allman continued to contradict our contention that some state land is needed by all sporting dog groups, be they coon dogs, bird dogs, water dogs, beaglers or fox or coyote dog owners. The sentiment among the Fish and Wildlife Folks seemed to be that they much prefer closing all dog running in the spring regardless of what other states are doing. I feel that Both Glen Salmon and John Goss were keeping somewhat of an open mind to concerns of the thousands of sporting dog owners and their friends here in Indiana. It is my hope that Mr. Goss will understand our needs and position,and realize that adequate year round training areas are indeed needed by the sporting dog groups, also by gaining control of the majority of reservoir property areas there is more than enough land for DNR to do its work. We attempted to impress upon all those in attendance that 150 years of field trailing had destroyed in Indiana already, There is no justification to destroy the sporting dog groups training also when in fact by DNRS own admission other states do not lock the dog out completely.

The meeting was adjourned by Mr. Goss by summarizing the points that we agreed upon. those being.

1) there is no initiative to close or restrict any private land.

2) the formation of designated dog running areas on reservoir areas would not meet with major resistances provided generous size areas were offered.. ( there was some disagreement on this as the person in charge of reservoirs seemed to think that even 10% was too large. ) We will continue to deal with this one.

3) DNR should consider leaving some dog Training open even in the spring on designated dog training areas .

I do feel that Mr. Goss is making an earnest attempt to come up with a compromise that would work for all parties. I do not believe , however, that we are near a point where the sporting dog groups can slow down in their efforts to impress upon both IDNR and our legislators that there is both need and justification for continuing the practice of dog running on state land. We should all continue our efforts, just as im sure the folks from Fish and Wildlife and the reservoirs will.

I hope this clears up some misconceptions and reaffirms some others.

Jack Hyden
Indiana Beaglers Alliance

[Guest]

I do not understand any of this, the last time I looked, we were still in the good ole US of A.

Quote; "it was determined that suitable land needed to be found and then dollars needed to be located to buy it. "

Sounds like, if you want to run dog, we'll have to buy some "other grounds" for you to run on. There's no need to buy "other grounds" to run on. There has been no study to determine how many run dogs at the time refered to, has impact on the wild life, if any. This needs to be done area specific, not a blanket case.

Quote; "The sentiment among the Fish and Wildlife Folks seemed to be that they much prefer closing all dog running in the spring regardless of what other states are doing."...

These people have lost touch with nature and the way she works and need to be replaced. They have no study of proof but yet are ready to take away your rights, on their own personal feelings, this is very scary...

Quote; "I do feel that Mr. Goss is making an earnest attempt to come up with a compromise that would work for all parties."

There is no room for compromise as there has been no proof of a need for restriction in the first place, just someone's idea of what they "think" would be good. I fear we may some day rule & restrict ourselves out of everything. We live in the middle of 1000's of acres FWLA, when they can show me how my 6 month old pups are impacting the wildlife while stumbling around trying to learn a track, then I will listen. Until then, go save a blue nosed rat ...Patch

[Gary A]

Patch,

You are correct. There are no studies that dog running in the spring affects any kind of nesting.

No one is sure that the Turkey hunter, mushroom hunter, hiker, etc has any less effect on the spring nesting season than training dogs.

We have to act togeather as houndsman to keep our sport intact. That is why I got involved with the Indiana Beaglers Alliance.

It is also a national Alliance that all beaglers should join. Indiana has been very active because of Jack Hayden.

Anyone needing more infomation please contact Jack (e-mail address everywhere on this board) or me at garyaotte@msn.com.

Thanks
Gary

[jackrabbit]

the statement about land being bought was made in referance to bird dog field trialing that was going on between IDNR and Mike Small and Mike jackson. The mike's were attempting to make some points with IDNR, but IDNR is stubbornly sticking to their contention that Pittman Roberts is to blame for our Field Trialing wows. Rather than attempt to solve the problem DNR would rather let the sportsman do it for them. And it may be that ultimately we will have to do just that. Beaglers obviously have a stake in field trialing also, and so we will be standing beside the birddog folks in working to find a reasonable and rapid solution to our devastating loss of field trialing in indiana.

I know i'm sticking my neck out a bunch this early, but i really feel that Mr. Goss was listening in the meeting. I anticipate at least another meeting like the one on July 1 and possibly more than one. Everyone needs to continue to contact legislators right now. some of you club presidents contact your local legislators and invite them to a meeting to be held at your club. invite friends and family in and have 50 to 100 people there to talk to them. The Indiana Beaglers Alliance will attend to help if needed, and we can help you with presenting a concise, to the point opposition to dog restrictions. those of you who have gotten letters with the members of the senate natural resource committee on it... please write to thoses legislators. Be specific in your comments. Our DNR wants to further restrict the opportunities we are paying for when we purchase our license. We already are severely restricted in the amount of land we can use on our Fish and Wildlife Properties. And now not only do they want to take away user opportunities on the reservoirs, they want to completely lock us out in the spring/summer months. While there is some presidence for IDNR to make designated dog running areas on some reservoir properties there is no presidence what so ever to close any areas completely during the spring. I have emailed dozens of states and asked several questions regarding their dog training restrictions on state lands, and the replies im getting back have no states completely closing it off. two have laws that say they do, but then there are provisions that allow for individuals to get free permits from the property managers to train dogs during those spring/summer months.

I think we will find that there is some changes that we will have to adjust to, but they should not be nearly as restrictive as our IDNR is asking . One IDNR employee told me once that IDNR trys to take as much as they can in the beginning so they will end up with what they really want. Well we need to fight hard for everything to stay open so we can end up with something we can live with and train our dogs with.

jack hyden
Indiana Beagler's Alliance.