The American Beagler Forum

IMPORTANT MESSAGE FOR ALL SPORTSMEN AND WOMEN OF INDIANA




We have a situation in Indiana that is causing us to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in needed revenue. this lost revenue is our money that is being given to other states to build their game populations, stock their lakes and streams with fish, build wildlife habitat, and pay for biologists to improve their outdoor sports enjoyment. We are handing our money to them by the baskets full, and we didn't even know we were doing it. Many of our sportsmen and women are not aware of the existence of a federal program that has been in effect since probably the 1930s. This federal program that most of us simply call PR/DJ has an approximately 11% federal tax that is levied on every hunting and fishing related purchase we make. The money after its collected is then redistributed to the individual states using a formula that includes the number of hunting and fishing licenses sold in that state. we are doing ok on most of the licenses. The problem is that many states also sell youth and senior fishing licenses. Traditionally Indiana has treated our youth and senior sportsmen to free fishing. And we have always thought it was just the neatest thing. Well that neat little gift is also giving all our neighbor states a minimum of $6.60 of our wildlife money for each senior license they put out. ITS ESTIMATED THAT WE HAVE ABOUT 87,000 SENIOR ANGLERS AND 35,000 YOUTH ANGLERS AND THAT Indiana SPORTSMEN AND WOMEN ARE LOSING IN AREA OF $1,000,000.00 TO $1,500,000.00 A YEAR TO THE OTHER STATES. ( yes, that's right a million to a million and a half dollars a year we are giving to other states to support their wildlife programs.)


AND THE BAD NEWS DOESN'T STOP THERE........ Its also a fact that all the baby boomers are going to be crossing that age 65 threshold shortly. And as we do turn 65 we are going to lose an additional three out of every ten sportsmen and women (30%) that purchase a fishing license. IN 2002 THERE WERE 356,509 RESIDENT FISHING LICENSES SOLD. 30% OF THAT IS 106,950 LESS FISHING LICENSES SOLD. which EQUATES TO AN ADDITIONAL $2,000,000.00 MILLION DOLLARS IN LOST WILDLIFE REVENUE FROM FISHING LICENSE SALES. Three million dollars is a lot of lost revenue folks. it has always been (and always will be) the feeling of Indiana sportsmen and women that our major concern is that we leave our children, grandchildren, and future generations the legacy of our hunting and fishing heritage. UNLESS WE DO SOMETHING the legacy we will be leaving them is no place to hunt or fish or hunting and fishing at an extreme expense. There just has to be someone paying the cost in order to have the opportunity.

And here is where we have an opportunity to prevent this disaster from happening. It is being proposed that Indiana begin to offer a youth fishing license (age 13 to 16) and a senior license at a discounted rate. It is anticipate the youth license would be in the $2.75 to $5.00 range and the senior license would be no more than half the price of a current license. By the actions of Indiana sportsmen and women stepping up to the plate and supporting these licenses we can insure that our wildlife programs are secure for generations to come, while at the same time insuring that every dollar raised is going directly to our wildlife programs. I AM SOLIDLY IN FAVOR OF THIS LICENSE CHANGE. I UNDERSTAND THE NEED, AND I CARE DEEPLY FOR OUR CHILDREN AND FUTURE GENERATIONS OF SPORTSMEN AND WOMEN. OUR FATHERS AND THEIR FATHERS SACRIFICED MUCH MORE THAN A FEW DOLLARS TO LEAVE US WITH THE HERITAGE WE HAVE TODAY. CAN WE DO LESS?

P.S. the figures i used are aproximate, they may vary a little, but they are a pretty accurate picture of what is happening.

THANK YOU
Jack Hyden
Indiana Beaglers Alliance

I have real trouble accepting most of this. Federal Aid, whether Pittman-Robertson or Dingell-Johnston, is a zero sum game. Unless Indiana's population is a lot older than the nation's, giving away senior licenses doesn't cost Hoosiers any of its apportionship. We all die at the same rate and most other states have free senior or lost cost, life-time licenses.

In any event, the amount of sporting goods federal excise tax each state receives is only partially a function of the number of its licensed hunters and anglers. Land mass, water acreage and length of coastline are big, if not bigger factors in the federal calculation. Alaska has a third the licensed hunters of Indiana, yet receives 3.5X the PR money. The same relationship is confirmed if you examine IL, ME, MT and VA federal receipts.

There is some interesting information here however.
Reviewing available 2001 data, it's clear the Hoosier sportsmen pay less, and in some cases substantially less, for their licenses and tags than do others. Of the six states examined, federal data shows IN at $16 per license holder with the others ranging from $22 to $45. AK and MT obviously get a bump from higher, costly out-of-state sales, but if your concern is funding wildlife for future generations, what you should first consider is increasing your normal license fees $10 to bring them in line. The very last thing you should be proposing is discouraging youth hunting.

Bob Kane

Bob, the fact is your state, Ohio, is now charging seniors for a fishing license to get back thier share of the PR/DJ money and if im not wrong they are going to charge $10.00 to seniors. and unless Ohio has no baby boomers at all, its going to have the same problem we will. The amount that we lose per license in PR/DJ money is $6.60. I doubt that there is anyone that is not aware that the baby boomer group ( of which i am one) is going to add tons of headaches to all types of budgets in the coming years. If we fail to act now its going to take much, much more than a $10.00 a year increase in licenses across the board to make up the loss. And even your projected $10.00 increase will be lost along with our normal fee and the DJ/PR money for each of us baby boomers that turns 65 if we dont act. We will either pay it now or pay it later. and the knee jerk reactions won't pay the bills down the road. further more why would i want to pay more for all my licenses now when i can simply continue to purchase a fishing license after i turn 65 for a discounted rate and get back some of my money that you ohions and other states are getting right now.

Knee jerk? Rational discussion with Jackrabbit is virtually impossible and usually futile. Perhaps it doesn't matter, as no one's listening. In the event that anyone is reading this thread - BEWARE. There's no way that anyone can justify discouraging youth hunting, as has been done here. It's extremely short-sighted and the equivalent of eating your seed corn. Not only doesn't he understand the federal aid programs, I very much doubt that he knows the size of INDR's budget or its component revenue or expediture parts.

As stated above, federal aid excise tax "apportionments" or refunds are only modestly based on the number of a state's licensed hunters and anglers. State birth rates and population age distributions, including those of "baby boomers" are largely uniform. Jackrabbit's figures are bogus. His continued trumpeting of such poorly considered ideas shows a Pied Piper-like quality that I hope readers will resist.

As most of you are aware, I reside in Virginia, not Ohio.

Ohio's described $10 increase in its senior fishing license isn't designed to increase its federal aid allocation. I challenge anyone to even calculate the effect, given all the unkowns involved in that determination. The $10 increase is to give Ohio F&G more revenue, per se. It already collected 25% more per man than does Indiana, before the increase. There are no easy answers guys, either in wildlife conservation or solving tough problems. Take the time to study the situation before acting.

Bob Kane

Perhaps,bob, you should contact Virginia then and see how much they get back from Pittman-Roberts per hunting and fishing license they sell. As i stated in the orginal message that you seem to enjoy tearing apart, there are other factors besides the number of licenses sold that are included in factoring in the money that each state gets, but the number of licenses is one of the factors. With all that aside even a person such as yourself , Bob, can easily understand that if you divide the amount of money returned by pittman-roberts by the number of licenses sold you come up with the amount each license is worth in pittman-roberts money. And i bet even you understand, Bob, that our youth spend more than $2.75 To $5.00 on junk food each day, and several times more than that on the video games that are capturing thier attention instead of hunting and fishing. We have an opportunity here in Indiana to make a real differance in the future of wildlife and we can do it without sacrafice or burden. And fact is, bob, I do have the figures to back what im saying. But then this is not the first time you have opposed what i support. If im not mistaken you told me that wanting to protect our opportunities to run our dogs in the spring and summer was going against sound game management and that i was the worst type of person to work for any cause. well, my friend, The indiana beaglers alliance just happens to have all the sporting dog groups behind it, including written support of the Indiana Field Trialers Association. and the sporting dog groups in Indiana have the support of the Senate Natural Resource committee. My concern is supporting and defending our hunting heritage, and i sure want to leave that heritage in good sound condition for future generations of Indiana sportsmen and women.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR IMPUT THOUGH.

Jack Hyden
Indiana Beaglers Alliance

Bob,

I am listening. How can a discussion about fishing license discourage youth hunting?

It seems to me that if a youth or senior that can fish for free in Indiana should have to be accounted for in some way that that the PR/JT money is rewarded to the state for their actions to the sport.

No one of any age can hunt in Indiana without a license.

Gary

If you feel you need to raise money, charge the same for out-of-state hunters as they charge us, I think ours is about 1/2 what they charge us.

" I am not in favour of charging the kids and elders a fee."

Every SFWL employee around here has their own SFWL truck to drive and they drive by my home 7 days a week. Don't know if their on overtime on the weekends or on salary but the trucks are never parked, always on the road, always one employee per truck. The gas budget & mileage must be unlimited to them. I have no problem if it's travel to work or accomplish something for the wildlife but I never see evidence of it.
They closed the camp sites around here so there's no up keep there anymore. They also doubled the bond to any place that sells license for them.
Now a little bait shop owner told me he used to pay a $100. to them to sell there license, now it's $200. He makes .50 per license, so he has to sell 400 license before he makes his first penny and for a small place it's not worth the trouble so he told them he was not working for them to put it all in their pocket.

Well, don't need this to stir me up, got to get some sleep ...Patch

the Indiana Beaglers Alliance suggested at the open houses that we increase the charge for out of state hunters, however, thats only going to discourage out of state folks from coming in to hunt and not raise needed funds.

there were, and still are, areas in DNR that were dependant on state monies to operate, when that money was cut from the budget those services were reduced accordingling. if you dont like seeing things closed in and on state lands then you will either open your wallet wider to help pay for it or use the easiest and least expensive ways to do it..... and 5 bucks or so a year for 3 million a year is still the best deal going.

jack hyden
indiana beaglers alliance

Patch, not all bordering states are so unfair to our fellow hunters that just happen to live across a certain boundry -- Indiana is really putting it to nonresidents. I live in IN and it is cheaper for me to hunt all game in KY than for my KY buddies to hunt all game in Indiana. I can hunt everything in KY for just over $160 (Turkey, Deer and rabbits) and my friends are getting ripped off.

yes, as i understand the situation if you are wanting to hunt in ky. you get most all the permits for the non-resident fee, where as in Indiana you still need to purchase the deer and other permits after you have the non-resident hunting license.... however the suggestion to raise fees in Indiana is to address another situation and has nothing to do with the additional permits needed.

As for the youth and senior license issue. beginning such youth and senior licenses will still be the most efficient way to solve a future problem and to bring in monies we are losing every year. I was looking forward to free fish dinners myself, but 1/2 price and full service still sounds like a bargain i can live with. Come on folks lets get behind this and show that we are concerned about our future, our grandchildrens future, and our natural resources and not just a free bluegill lunch.

jackrabbit

i did forget to mention that the reduced youth and senior fishing license will include all the stamps also. so we will get to eat trout and salmon along with our bluegill and bass and still raise big bucks every year.... come on guys im talking money here not deer....lol.

thanks again
jackrabbit

I don't know what neighboring states of Indiana you are talking about jackrabbit, but here in Illinois youth under 16 fish for free as do seniors over 65.

John Strader

im at work now and dont have the paperwork with me... i will get back with you this evening. right now i can tell you ohio has or is going to a ten dollar per year license fee for seniors. and the states that dont have such a license are losing out just like we are.

Jack,
This is just MHO, but as in most cases, once things start, there's never any end. The hard part is getting them started but once you do, the sky is the limit, with cost and fees. I fear, in short order, the state would have the fees all evened out, once they get it started.
I remember as a kid, going to the pits to fish. My father would never have put out for a fishing license for me but that "free start" got me hooked for life and now I pay. I feel that strongly for any kid who's father may not put out to allow them to get the start also.
I have seen first hand, the waste of the DNR and they will have to clean up their act and many other options administered, before I could see the need for such action with the kids & elders. JMHO...Patch

patch.... this new license idea will be strictly controled by the legislature. DNR will not be able to get any increases without the legislature oking it so there is extreme amount of control on our part. These licenses are not like the general license stucture. also the youth licenses do wont start til age 13 and the cost is to be only enough to cover the cost of issue and distribution of the license itself about $2.75. most teens these days waste more than that on junk food, and many times that amount on video games. No one seems to complain about the youth hunting license. i really think the license gives the youth more of a feeling of participating.

You know how hard i am to convince about anything IDNR does. so if i were not able to see it in black and white and know that this is the best, easiest, and cheapest way to go i sure as heck wouldnt buy into it. I, too, was skeptical, but i cant imagine in our economy that $2.75 to $5.00 a year is going to put anyone in a bind. But if we dont do something we are going to put future generations in real bind. keep an open mind and give it some more thought...... and by all means dont get all worked up and lose sleep.....lol.

jackrabbit