North Central Ohio Beagle Club 9/25-9/26....AKC SPO

[Ohiohntr]

You shouldn't believe everything you hear would be my side of story, the other side of my story would be for you to come to our trial and see for yourself before you jump on the world wide web and bash our club for not producing rabbits in the middle of the day with hot temps.....A lot of work goes into a trial including trying to find prime running grounds on private land where they welcome 25-50 guys standing around and multiple vehicles....snide "no game" comments from people who were not even at the trial go a long way in killing entries for clubs trying to promote a well ran trial.

The males were split and group A (I think) was finished with the 1st series by 10:45am and there were no complaints on the amount of game.....the 3rd pack of I belive B group did go on a nature hike for a good while but we switched spots and the pack was given rabbits (good on the judges to not hurry through the pack)...we later found out that the first area has been taken over by coyotes. All packs in the 2nd series were given multiple rabbits...of course some ran them better than others. I was out there for the winners pack and we saw at least 4 lines by the road not counting the rabbit they were running. As far as the hounds running the rabbits....they covered that in the AKC seminar directly after the male class, it is called adaptablity to the conditions....some could, some couldn't and that is the breaks.

The little male class was small but they did struggle to run as well....again, some more than others. All in all, it was an ugly day to own a beagle but I really think there would only be one or two packs all weekend that would have a gripe about the amount of game and as a club we made a decision to not use that piece of running grounds for the rest of the weekend even though we had paid to use it.

Sunday brought much cooler temperatures (45 degrees in the am) and game was on the move...no problems at all finding game. Although, I did hear of one pack that was given 6 rabbits and couldn't run any of them....doubt that is the clubs falt, you may feel differently.

[jdmart]

There was plenty of game in every pack I saw in the little females. Never heard one complaint over lack of game in any class. Great trial! Kelly could have done a rain dance a few days before the trial though.

[mybeagles]

Thats why I asked the question. When rabbits are jumped and dogs cant run them it reflects poorly on the type of dogs being promoted. Its no secret a dog with a big nose that likely could run in poor conditions is not very popular at most trials.

My reference to tough time with rabbits was based on group B of the big males. I understand it was nearly 3 pm before first series was complete. Sounds like the judges worked very hard and it was not meant to criticize the club or its judges. I think it begs the bigger question.......why is the running so poor at most trials in the big male class. Ky trial the week or so before took Monday to get it done. In all honesty, should it take more than 2 or 3 rabbits to judge a pack of dogs. If 3 rabbits are produced and none of them can run it would it be wrong to send the whole pack home? With 6 rabbits given to a pack, I would have a hard time placing a dog out of that pack.

Ohiontr,

Im running a derby right now or I would have been there. Was just looking for some more feedback on how the trial went. Sorry if you or anyone else interpreted my post as a slam to the club or judges. I think their needs to be more dialog on the poor running that takes place at trial after trial. This is bigger than just a club not having 200 rabbits to run. I could have been more tactful.....

Mybeagles

[old blood beagles]

I understand your concerns Mybeagles but the way that I look at it; is the judges are giving every chance they can to see the hounds. If you do jump two or three rabbits and they ran straight to a hole how much did you get to see, or if the judges saw a rabbit but the hounds could not smell it then how do you judge them.
I was in the 3rd pack of the 13 inch females a couple of weeks ago and the running was bad, very bad, but the judges let us run for about 4 hours before calling that pack. The truth of the matter is that we could not get a rabbit up and it was not the hounds fault because every hound in that pack was working their butts off. Now at the end of that pack there were a couple of very short races and if I was the judge I would not be able to give a good score or pick out any of the hounds from that pack but the judges gave every hound a chance and that is what I like about the AKC Mid-West trials.
I have said this before but thanks to the judges of the 13 inch females as you all put in a very hard day.

[mybeagles]

The truth of the matter is that we could not get a rabbit up and it was not the hounds fault because every hound in that pack was working their butts off.

I would say its the dog owners as a whole promoting a dog that cant run in tough conditions that are to blame. I have run with a number of guys and heard testimony of more that cant run a rabbit all summer because its hot and dry. I have a hound that can run pretty well in the hot and dry, but some will say has an extra bark when its 40 deg and damp. Is that a fair trade off?

You just basically stated in another way that there was no game. Is that acceptable to say? It seems that everyone is afraid to say it for fear of loosing entries. Either there is no game, or the trial is held during a time of year when game is too tough to run with the hounds being promoted. Either way, their needs to be an adjustment. I dont want to drive 4-8 hours one way to a trial and run a couple 30 second races regardless if I win or loose.

I would say the judges did what they had to do. No complaint at all. Having been in that situation several times, usally judging 15" males, I can say thats a tough predicament. In almost all cases I believe it was the lack of patience, poor check work and over competetiveness that let to the poor running.

Maybe no else cares about what Im saying. I certainly addressed it in the wrong forum, but I think it needs to be looked at a little closer.

Mybeagles

[old blood beagles]

Knowing the hounds in the pack and also knowing the owners, I can tell you that they are promoting the best hounds around. Somedays you have poor running and it is no ones fault, other days yes the hounds are acting up and yes I would say that there are hounds out there that no one should enter into a trial (but like everyone says run what you like). Now I run a very tough 13 inch bitch that I would drop with any hound 13 inch, 15 inch or even a 17 inch in any condition. The truth of the matter is that day there were no rabbits, and yes the judges had a hard time but they did all they could for the hounds and the owners. That is a risk that we must take when we make the trips to trials.

One more thing, I dont think that you should talk about someones hounds when you have never ran with them. If you see a bad hound at at trial go up to the man and tell him, dont get on the board and say they are promoting a bad hound.

[mybeagles]

One more thing, I dont think that you should talk about someones hounds when you have never ran with them. If you see a bad hound at at trial go up to the man and tell him, dont get on the board and say they are promoting a bad hound.

I didnt single out any hounds. My statements were very generic. As far as telling them, I have told several handlers after a trial I judged that their dog was running rough or swinging, or lacked the nose to contribute to the pack.

I tell the guys I run with if I see any fault in their hounds, and I would certainly hope they would tell me the faults they see with mine. If bettering your kennel or the breed is the goal, then objective observations from others should be welcomed in the formula. You dont have to accept or even agree, but talking about it shouldnt hurt.

One of my best friends in beagling and I totally disagree about what type of hounds should be promoted, but I think we understand where eachother are coming from.

One thing for sure in my mind is the lack of quality runs at trial after trial. It seems to be the norm rather than the exception. Just an observation.....Is there anyone that believes we are getting excellent running in the SPO trials these days?

Mybeagles

[jdmart]

I would say its the dog owners as a whole promoting a dog that cant run in tough conditions that are to blame. I have run with a number of guys and heard testimony of more that cant run a rabbit all summer because its hot and dry

I have never heard of people whose dogs can't run a rabbit in the summer. Some do a better job than others. If they can't run one in the summer you are probaly not going to be very competitive anyway. If you don't run in the summer you won't be competing in AKC SPO trials in the Mid-West because your dogs will not make it through a long days trial or should I say when it is 75-90 degrees. Ever seen a day when scenting conditons where terrible in Dec.?? Absolutely. Doesn't matter the time of year for scenting conditions they can be bad anytime. Just takes more stamina in Sept. heat. Yes, I know its more likely bad scenting in the summer.

[old blood beagles]

"I would say its the dog owners as a whole promoting a dog that cant run in tough conditions that are to blame."



This is not just a smack in the face of one or two guys this is a smack in the face of everyone that runs in AKC-MidWest.

In that 3rd pack I was in there was JdMart, Poteet kennels, Eyers and myself and on any given day any of these hounds could take a 1st, and on any given day I would put 100 to 1 that they will produce meat on the table. In the 15 inch female class and the 13 female class I would say there are great hounds going head to head with great hounds. Come watch us this weekend and see for yourself and then get on this board and tell everyone what type of hounds we are promoting.

[mybeagles]

13" females, 15" females, and 13" male classes usually do run much better. Tony himself I think would agree with most of what I have posted based on my conversations with him.

My original post, and most of my comments were based on the 15" male class. Whats going on there? If you see my first post, I asked how the 13" classes ran, knowing the 13" females likely run much better, proving it wasnt a lack of game....

Im planning on attending Central Indian, West Virginia, Arkansas, and maybe Blue Water. Ill be judging a couple trials in Arkansas this fall, I hope Im pleasantly supprised and they just pound all day long. If your at any of these trials look me up and we will count all the races that last 10 minutes or longer and post the numbers for everyone to see. Im guess 13" females will be the only class with any......If the 15" males have a race lasting 10 minutes or longer I will buy you lunch!

Mybeagles

[Ohiohntr]

Mybeagles.....a couple of questions for ya.

When was the last time you were physically at a Midwest trial? If my memory serves me right you were the one starting crap about Midwest judges cheating but yet you hadn't been to a trial in years. If so, how in the heck can you possibly know what kind of hounds are being promoted other than hearing it from 6 people down the grapevine?

The AKC rep was present at the trial and I had the opportunity to spend a day and a half with him....a few key notes he threw out there that made sense.
1. The Internet Beaglers are ruining a great sport
2. Although there are several different running styles not all of them or any of them suit any particular individual
3. Run what you like, not what others like...if a judge doesn't like your dog but you do....it is your right not to run under him, it is one persons opinion on that particular day.
4. Most of the guys who talk about how much they run their dogs, rarely run their dogs
5. The Midwest is promoting a great rabbit hunting dog and is a keen representation of what a beagle should be utilized for.
6. The rep said our dogs are more hard hitting than he care for but that is only because he is older and can't keep up with them and also the area he runs in has a lot of roads so they could get out of the area and get hit on the road.

Now, I don't know you nor do you know me but if an AKC (who watches 200+ trials per year) is excited about the type of hound we are promoting then I am going to probably take his word over yours. He stated on Saturday that there is a small handful of dogs that could run well in that type of weather condition and they aren't in this part of the country nor will they ever be cause we would hate them.

We had dogs from Arkansas, had dogs from the Upper Penisula, Had dogs from Upper WI, had dogs from lower KY, had dogs from PA, had dogs from IN.....basically all types and all sizes.....guess everyone on this side of the country is promoting the wrong "type" of dog eh'.

[mybeagles]

You have the wrong guy......

I dont believe I have ever criticized a midwest judge on this forum. Someone correct me if Im wrong. Overall I think the Mid-west is the best format out there. Im concerned about the lack of ability to keep rabbits going over 5 minutes. I thought this was an open forum to discuss the good, bad and the ugly. I only been to one trial the last 4 years because i have been deployed to Iraq, Afganistan, and Korea. Leaving for Afganistan again in December. During that time I have posted very little because I was "out of the loop". I willing fight for freedom and will exercise my right to free speech. I wish I could attend more trials, and when Im not deployed you will see me around. I judge everytime I get a chance and I enjoy being at the trials.

I was at Central Indiana's derby trial a couple weeks ago. Managed to place 2nd out of 3.....lol As long as I maintain peace in the home, my kids and i will be at the trials I listed. Being deployed, I just have a derby dog that I have run to death this summer in hopes of getting her competetive for a couple licensed trials......she is looking a little conservative at this point, but running a real steady rabbit.

I probly have not been to as many trials as you have. I have judged 10 mid-west licensed trials, a few fun trials, and two hare trials. Ive attended 40 or so trials mainly just to observe. Ive entered 15 or so with moderate success with a generally more conservative hounds.

Mybeagles

[Ohiohntr]

"The midwest is a clique. If your in the clique and get a decent dog that runs the front, regardless of how; it will finish. Especially if your a recognizable name in the association.".....posted by mybeagles on March 3, 2010

Sound familar ....doesn't sound like a guy trying to promote an Association. I'm done with this and I'm going to ask Aaron to remove this trial ad as the trial is over with and there is no need for you to use my thread to run down the Midwest Association and the hounds running in it. If you want to start a new thread then please do so in the general forum.

Although we have a difference of opinion and I don't agree with you hijacking my thread I do appriciate your service to our country and thank you.

[mybeagles]

Ohiohntr,

That thread was about "SPEED" and the lack of any sustained races. My goal has never been to promote an association, but a better rabbit dog. If promoting an association means ignoring that fact that dogs cant keep a rabbit going, then I wont be doing any promotions.

The midwest is a clique. If your in the clique and get a decent dog that runs the front, regardless of how; it will finish. Especially if your a recognizable name in the association. The focus is on speed. If your dog does not run the front it will not win and will struggle to place. Even when the running is BAD and constantly breaking down the fastest dogs win.

Websters dictionary definition of clique:
: a narrow exclusive circle or group of persons; especially : one held together by common interests, or views

This was based on the speed and style of dogs showing up at the trials, not a criticism of the judges although I can certainly see how it could be percieved that way. Wether you want to admit it or not, there is a significant difference in the judges in the Mid-west. Some favor a conservative hound while others, perhaps most, favor a very hard hitting hound. It doesnt mean the judges are dishonest or crooked, just that they promote a different style of hound. If your in the "clique" that runs the hard hitting, rougher running hounds you have seen when running is tough, not a single sustained race and judges are left to sort out a complete mess. For example.....jumping 6 rabbits in a cast, and not being able to run any of them. If the more conservative clique if judging, you see dogs that have been winning get picked up first series, and owners not very happy.

Find the dogs you like, then find a judge that likes that running style and go to those trials. Its different from north to south and east to west. Jack Eddy

I don't have any animosity towards the Mid-west or any of its trials. From what I have seen, guys running rough hounds that disrupt the smooth running of the pack get promoted too often, that just my opinion. I have been able to observe the judges that are in a more conservative clique and the ones that are in the more agressive clique. Failure to recognize this can lead to frustration towards the trials. Not sure I have ever talked to anyone that trials much in the mid-west that doesnt talk about these differences. I dont see why posting it more openly raises so many eyebrows. As I look through the Better beagling Magazine at the judges for the past couple years, the pool is not that big. Same guys trial after trial. After you see a guy judge 3 or 4 times its pretty easy to see which camp he is in. Again, it doesnt mean he is dishonest or crooked, just favors one style over the other.

My offer is still good if you can set apart our dissagreements........find me at a trial, and if 15" males can keep a steady race going for 10 minutes without a breakdown, I will buy you lunch!

Mybeagles

[Aaron Bartlett]

I certainly addressed it in the wrong forum, but I think it needs to be looked at a little closer.

Mybeagles

I agree! Hijacking this clubs trial ad was a poor choice and some of your statements were chosen poorly since your posts were posted on a club ad. Feel free to start your own thread on this subject in the Field Trial discussion forum. This one has came to an end.