Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

[thornie]

Should try to talk Donnie to post the one of Dick showing a dog in AKC show.

[wvbill]

Shawn,

I agree with you that running around a yard getting in shape to running a rabbit for a 4-6 hours a day is definetly more beneficial to a hound. But yard exercise is better than none at all. If I was just a show person I can see where getting them out and running around the yard all day would be fine.

All,

I feel that the hare hounds are entriely to long. You can still get good lung capacity with a shorter back /loin dog. If there is enough room behind the rib cage for expansion and the ribs have enough expansion. I wish some of the show judges today would see things in the eyes of a hunter. They have influenced the beagle to be shorter in back/loin. People want to win so they are going to breed what is going to appeal to the judges. But in turn hare hunters have breed for a longer dog because they know it has advantages. Some of these hounds that are shorter are more appealing to the eyes, but that still doesnt mean they can not run all day at a 8 hour field trial with 40 dogs on hare, NONSTOP. I dont know to many marathon runners that sit on their butts for a month then go out and win the NYC marathon. Not all, but quite a few hare trialers have large pens that their dogs are left in for days to run, they feed and water them daily and make sure they are okay but they are getting them ready to trial. I dont have that luxury, I sure wish I did. Have heard a few beaglers across the border, state if their dogs cant run a fox or deer for 8 solid hours he is going to have trouble finishing. Is this your type of dog?

I dont run alot of hare but I guarantee if my dogs were in shape they would do fine in a hare trial. I know getting them in shape for a hare trial is totally different than a AKC SPO, UKC, or NKC trial. I am breeding dogs that appeal to me. My dogs can, will, and WANT to hunt days on end.

Hare hounds not having a lot of bone!?! I have a very good friend that runs hounds that are hare hounds. They have placements in lp on hare and their sire and dams are IFC or FC on hare. These dogs have bone. Very nice bone in my opinion. Granted they are lacking in other areas but I can tell you they have just as much bone as some of my "show" dogs. AND...... Most of them have nice chests also. Most outweigh my hounds. My dogs go 20 lbs some of his are around 30.

Is it really the bone or the muscle?

You want to see a pleasing to the eyes hare hound look at IFC COWBAY STRIKER, he was even there at the age of 11. I watched this dog run on a few occassions and he could get it done. I would of loved to see him when he was younger. When I last saw him it was right before he had to be put to rest. He still did an outstanding job. I have heard from numerous people he was one of those once in a lifetime hounds.


Most Show breed hounds I have had the opportunity to run with have wheels. Usually the fastest dogs in the pack but not the cleanest. Where do we draw the line.......... clean or fast or somewhere in between? Now once the day wears on they start to slow down and run better with the pack. But just a few hours in the field they will look like greyhounds down with peanut rollers. Just my experiences. I am trying to breed a little less footspeed with more line control. Especially with my show hounds. Eventually I will make the dynamite cross. Then I will keep all the pups and never make the cross again.

Nobody wants a ugly rabbit dog, unless you are thornie.

Bill

[Beagled1]

I feel that the hare hounds are entriely to long. You can still get good lung capacity with a shorter back /loin dog. If there is enough room behind the rib cage for expansion and the ribs have enough expansion. I wish some of the show judges today would see things in the eyes of a hunter. They have influenced the beagle to be shorter in back/loin. People want to win so they are going to breed what is going to appeal to the judges. But in turn hare hunters have breed for a longer dog because they know it has advantages.

I have a problem w/ too much length of back in my line, which can have the same disadvantages as not enough ... too long a back & they're out of proportion. Not good for a functional working structure at all. When I pick a keeper pup I look for everything in moderation - bone, angulation, length of back. I do prefer bulkier pups, muscle wise, because they're usually the ones with the best spring of ribs. One thing I have to say is when I first got into Beagles I wanted something dual purpose and was forced to start with field lines because, frankly, what I saw in the show ring was junk. Too much bone and backs so short it sometimes seemed to go from shoulder to tail - lol - ok, not that short, but a hound with a short back is as non functional and out of proportion as the extra long backs. The ones I have that are closest to the Standard are the most efficient.

If I was just starting up my breeding program today, from the way the breed has changed in the past 5+ years in the showring, I'd probably start with show lines. I don't see very many of those extra short backed hounds anymore, or the ones falling over themselves with the heaviness of bone - or those clumsy poorly assembled rears. IMHO, the show breeding has greatly improved.

Hare hounds not having a lot of bone!?! I have a very good friend that runs hounds that are hare hounds. They have placements in lp on hare and their sire and dams are IFC or FC on hare. These dogs have bone. Very nice bone in my opinion. Granted they are lacking in other areas but I can tell you they have just as much bone as some of my "show" dogs. AND...... Most of them have nice chests also. Most outweigh my hounds. My dogs go 20 lbs some of his are around 30.
Is it really the bone or the muscle?
You want to see a pleasing to the eyes hare hound look at IFC COWBAY STRIKER,

I've never seen him in person, but he looks pretty close to perfect! I've herd he runs just as well, too, but haven't seen too many pups out of him. Really is a gorgeous hound tho ... that tail is soooo short, lol, but otherwise, THAT is a well build Beagle. Field, show or otherwise!

Bone is very important to me, and I try not to keep the hounds with the thinnest bone, even though they tend to be faster. My 14.5-15" hounds all weigh in from 28-30lbs. I've been told thats too heavy for a Beagle, they must be oversized, but they're not. On average, mine are upper medium speed, some a notch faster and have good moderate bone and are pure muscle. My best male would probably be kicked out of the AKC showring, lol But he's very close to my ideal, my interpetation of the Standard, and there's little I'd change about him.

[ohlinger.s]

WVbill, I've seen it alot. Show bred dogs cannot be conditioned to run and win a large pack on hare trial. sure a hare dog may outwiegh a show dog but that does'nt mean anything. It's in the way the dog is put togethor, and I know many show dogs that have much heavier bone structure than the biggest hare hound I've seen!!!!!They are equipped with more long stronger muscle, There is more muscle weight on a body than bone. LOl The show dogs i've seen run rabbits some have been of decent medium speed, but i would'nt say they are pack leaders by any means. If you think you could condition one of you're show hounds to go up and win in a large pack on hare trial i encourage you to do it b/c you had just accomplished something that will get you BIG BUCKS in stud fees from me. The bottomline is.... Strictly show dogs are not built to handle the levels of conditioning that well bred hunting dogs are. The other bottomline is if a hunting dog breeder already has dogs that handle top conditioning why would they change the style of built hound they have ?

[ohlinger.s]

LOl ok don't get me wrong here i'm kind of giveing off the wrong impression. I'm all for field ability combined with conformation. I'm still in my early years as a breeder and have a looong way to go. I do have a fair amount of experience time in beagles though. I support dog showers whole heartedly lol i would do it too prbly if i could'nt hunt my beagles i'd still at least show them!!, I'd just like to see it combine alil more too. I'm just alil biased towards the field as opposed to show. I'd love to see that dog that wins a hare hunt and then goes in the show ring a week later and wins there too!!!!!!!!!! LOL as far as Thornie!!!!! DUDE that was the greatest pic I've seen I'm pretty sure they made dick frame that and hang it up on his wall!!!!!!!!!! I havent seen it since he built the new house lol !! Maybe Don will post it for a good laugh!! TC maybe you'll see me judgeing and a.k.c show ring event one day lol I'm not about to be disriminated against b/c my dogs have scratches on there ears, but maybe if i'm an a.k.c show judge i could shake things up in the show world. Ya jist never know. I bet there'd be ALOT of politics behind that. Is there any licensed a.k.c judges who shoot guns with there beagles ? NO don't Donnie and Dave have that picture hanging up in there kennel at the farm ?????

[wvbill]

Shawn,

You state........" The bottomline is.... Strictly show dogs are not built to handle the levels of conditioning that well bred hunting dogs are."

What is a a well bred hunting dog? What is a well bred show dog?
I consider my hounds hunting dogs and show dogs. So where do mine fall in. Where is the dividing line? Isnt a beagle a beagle? Can I shoot cottontail over my hounds? What about hare?

You constantly go back to conditioning of hare hounds. What dictates they way they are conditioned? Is it placing in a field trail or being able to go shoot a couple of hare over your dogs on a weekend. That is wonderful, you like the way they condition the hounds that compete in Large Pack on Hare trails. But to me that is only a portion of the games that we can play.

I want a good looking dog that can run a rabbit the right way. What is the right way? If they are my hounds, it is "my way".

"The other bottomline is if a hunting dog breeder already has dogs that handle top conditioning why would they change the style of built hound they have ?"

Because they realize that the hound doesnt necessarily meet the breed standard or it has been proven that they break down at an earlier age. Lets just say that my neighbor has dogs that wins every weekend at a young age, no matter what format he puts them in. Should he change his breeding? You will say........NO but he will say YES due to the fact after they get 6 years of age they are just wore down ie. bow legged, bad joints, let down, thyroid problems, and to make it worse they have always had a hard time eating due to the fact they were either overshot or undershot. Should he change now?

More weight means the more joints and bones are pounded on. I am a very good example, not from the muscle side but the more weight I put on the more my joints and parts of me start to hurt.

We need not get bone and muscle combined. I have heard it hundreds of times. People will say, That is a Big boned dog when actually it is very well muscled with moderate bone. The idea is to know the difference. My friends dogs that have good bone actually have a different muscle look to them than some of these hounds in my kennel. My hounds have a bulkier muscle where his is more of a lean look. Anybody looking at my hounds would say they were bigger boned than his.

The one thing I would suggest is try and look at them both equally as far as hunt and show goes. You have shown to have a great passion for the hunt side of it. Apply the same passion for the show side and you will see fruits of your labors. It is going to take people that wants to do both or shows great interest in the other side to really make an influence. The sides are still seperated/divided. The more those of us that want hunt and show together our voice will become louder. Then maybe the real beagle will be breed.

Do you all have hare in Ohio? If so, where? Can out of staters hunt them?

Bill

[ohlinger.s]

We do have hare in northern ohio in the ashtabula region you cannot shoot them. Our lines are from dogs bred to run hare. None my dogs are breaking down i have a dog almost 7 still running strong. He's slowing down a bit but that is from maturity rather than wear and tear on his body. Show dogs don't meet the abuse that field dogs meet in there lifetime. I have known of 12 and 13 year old dogs still running very strong at that age. I don't see the problems that you are seeing in field bred dogs once they reach 6 or 7 years of age. That depends on the breeding of the dog more than anything. You will find that in both sides field and show i believe. Like i said i know my casting on those northern dogs as examples is a good bit impractical for most people in the lower 48, but it proves my point very well. Kudos on considering you're dog hunt and show kudos to all doing that i'm on the same path as you just prefer to do it in a different way and am not willing to make the sacrifices on the field side that you are. I'm not much of a breeder i prefer to enjoy the fruits of others labor such as tc and jc and the mcvay fellas cuz i hate the effort of raiseing soo many pups and have found i'm wayyy to picky to who i sell pups to in order to move my pups very quickly. Conformation is what i look for when i choose a pup, but i have to say the proof is in the pudding whne it comes to which type of dog actualy has the build to do what they are supposed to do. Most of these dogs do not look like what the show dog fanciers are favoring for the akc show rings, but they are doing it longer and harder than those dogs that are being put out as the standard in a.k.c show ring can do it, that is my point. My dogs are not too far off, but there is something to be said for less bone and longer muscled hounds as to the bulky beefy "stiff" show dogs out there. I don't know what you're dogs look like so i'm saying nothing about you're dogs unless you feel you're dogs fall into the category i am speaking of as a typical show dog. I don't believe akc should be as fashous as it is and in the trends of what wins at a certain time, it's not a fashion show it's about breeding to the standard that states how the beagle is supposed to be built to last in the field if you and i read the standard we will see a different dog b/c we interpret it differently. that goes the same with any literature on any subject. I have never seen the picture that goes along with the standard showing the perfect beagle. I do know like i said the older hounds and old sketches and pictures of the 19th century hounds don't like what you see pranceing around a show ring. They look more like my lucky dog if anything. As far as the bad joints and other prblms etc..how do show people know if they're dogs would develop the same problems if they have never been up to the physical tasks that field hounds have been put up, and again i have not seen those problems out of our dogs at 6 or 7 years of age maybe once they reach about the age of 10 or so i've seen a few like that but none out of our lines. Many of the dogs are 8 or 9 years old that i used to run with when i got into beagleing and are still placeing very well in field trials. I guess if someone is haveing those problems with there field dogs at 6 or 7 years old that is obviously something they have to take into consideration when looking at improveing they're lines.

[ohlinger.s]

What is a a well bred hunting dog? What is a well bred show dog?

Bill

A well bred hunting dog is a dog that is bred sired and dam of very good performers of hunting and ability to perform in a field.

A well bred show dog is a dog sired and dam of very good performers in a show ring i.e blocky good gait etc..

I.M.O
You don't see many hunting dogs gateing after a rabbit i see them running. Now i know what a gait is SUPPOSED to represent, the ease of movement in a dog, but the dogs i see with good endurance don't necessarily gait like a show dog, granted it may even be better if it did gait like a show dog, but.....there is alot more to endurance than just gait.

[TC]

I don't think that this debate is about who is producing the best dog, but how to get what is needed to get the better of both worlds. I have to agree with Ohlinger that the dogs need more length to accomplish their task in the field but I also have to agree with Bill that the show lines have recognized this and are not breeding to the square box beagle like they were 5 or 6 years ago. I see where a to long of a beagle is inclined to more back problems and I think this is probably the reason bassets, and dashounds have back problems is the length. The standard addresses this issue, however like stated above it is often left to interpretation, with out good diagrams to represent a proper build. I think this is where the registries fail the breed.

One thing is for certain this topic is a very valuable topic which I feel fortunate enough that Leah and Cindy are commenting on this topic so openly for on the Show boards topic's like this is shut down pretty fast for one wouldn't want to admit they have a fault in their dog. Open discussion on issues you find in your own breeding or in the breed itself helps newbies and some that have an open mind to see what is necessary to breed for a better build. I like to hear what they have to say on their own observations as to issues they find where there is faults, or perceived faults and what observations do you gals see that hinder your dogs abilities where it comes to the structure? What I am asking is when you observe dogs in the ring, I know you see faults that are structure faults, what do you see in your observations that hinder the dog? Where do you see physical issues, break down, less stamina, less ability to perform as the body should? Does this make since? (Not trying to be a smart butt, but I am trying to see what you see as issues that you feel are detrimental to the physical abilitiy if they were to pound a rabbit for hours?)

Ohlinger maybe a young man but I have a lot of respect for him because he is like a sponge when it comes to beagles and learning all there is to these little hounds we love so much. He has been around show and field hounds for a very long time, he might not be in the show ring, but he does know what a good build is. He is just trying to achieve the best hound he can that can run a rabbit the way he likes them to run. I have to respect him for that. One thing is for certain I really respect him for having such an open mind and being honest with what he sees and able to verbalize it respectfully. I think I have corresponded with him since he was about 17 or so and has always wanted to know more about the show dog, they build the positive attributes. He has an excellent eye with identifying the conformation. He maynot have the perfect dog, but who does? And he has arrived at the position of having the style of running hound with pretty durned good conformation to boot by being open minded and knowing what he is looking for in a dog.

I do agree the stream lined hounds do seem to be able to handle the field trials much better then the heavier ones, however I am not privy to know if it is conditioning or the structure. I do know in my line, that Lug is a very strong continder in the LP formats. Chance is a strong continder in the PP formats, now my most streamlined dog which needs conformation help for sure is competative more to the pp style, but can perform in lp, but when it gets hot he gets wore down. He has plenty of length and lung capasity and plenty of leg so this leads me to believe this is due to the color, he is black, and black absorbs more heat. I seen in field trials when it is the hottest the lighter colored dogs fair better with the heat. So in my experience, I believe color does contribute to this factor; but this is another topic...

I believe that the angulation is a factor to the ability of the hound, for the shoulders, hips legs and so forth are all like shock absorbers when put to gether properly the force of jumping running twisting and turning assists the body in being able to do these manuvers efficiently with out as much effort or damage to the joints. If one thing is out of whack it can contribute to another area injury. It is much like our own bodies.

[ohlinger.s]

Angulation seems like it takes a fine eye to see in a dog. Is there a tool that judges my use to figure up the angulation on dogs to see how close it really is ? I've been stareing at that diagram you posted and go outside and look at some of my dogs i know 45 degree and 90 degree angles are pretty easy to guestimate but when you try to put them on a dog you find yourself alittle stumped. at least i do. I can see how the angulation is important for the overall balance and distribution of the dogs weight when moveing. What i'm struggleing with on that diagram is the angles on the front quarters. The 45 degree at the withers of the dog is that line going from the center of the chest to the withers suggesting that it be 45 degrees from the chest to the withers ???? and also the 90 degree angle at the shoulders is that come from the center of the chest to the center of the shoulder and then up to the wither ?? ????? How is it decided that is the proper angulation ? I guess you'd reallllly have to have a fine eye when it comes to this! Assumeing what i'm seeing is correct in that diagram, but boy o boy if the ARHA bench judges i've encountered ever took the time to look this diagram i think they'd really re-consider some of the dogs they chosen to be bench winners lol. Most of the time in an arha show the show is over before i even have my dog stacked!!!!!!!!!! I've only been in 3 but 2 of them went that way.

[TC]

I don't think that it is the ultimate, but a guide, no I don't believe there is a tool, but I believe that this diagram is one of the best for helping you identify if the dog is short in the shoulder or where ever. I don't believe there is the perfect dog with the exact angle as described, but is a tool in itself to help you visualize the length of the bone and where the joining of the joints should take place in comparison/relation to the body of the hound. That is what I meant that I can feel the angle better then I can see it, or I can see it better with my hands then I can with the eye. You can see from the diagram where the joints should line up in relation to the other. Does this make since? Well anyway this is how I look at the diagram is for a visualization tool to be able to help me identify if they are short in the arm, how come the chest isn't where it should be, or the back legs don't quite line up like they should.

[thornie]

TC, you said Ohlinger is like a sponge and soaks everything up. Thats true, but every once in awhile we have to rinse him out.

[Beaglebrit]

[quote="TC"]This Would be the Dog Shawn was talking about..
AKC CH/UKC CCH Keepsakes Crewse-M Mizz T
Mizzt is a great little 13" hound and looks Fantastic in the Ring
BUT in the field she is taking 2 to 3 steps For every one the others are taking and just cannot last She has Speed For Short Distances but can not run more than a couple hours before she is Wore Down We have had many Compliments on her movement in the Ring
[quote]
TC and Leah....TC that is what I was trying to get accross in my earlier post. My Show CH Cakes is like that.She moves great at a trot, at a flying trot in the show ring she is fantastic!!!! but in the field she is just painful to watch. She pounds her front at anything faster than a trot. She lacks nose and line control to suit us(to be competive) but she will pack with the other girls and can negotiate the brush well and has adequate speed(Deep South SPO) So it isn't her basic ability it is her movement!
The only way I have to describe her front movement ...Leah help me out with this...She looks like a Cocker strung up on the go around (LOL).... here is a picture of Cakes
On the other hand I have a FC sired 15" female who just floats when she moves. At a trot she is awesome....In the field she is effortless in movement...She also has a tremendous amount of talent in the field...and her movement is wonderful.... A picture of Possi
I have been uable to figure out the mechanics of the difference in these two dogs
Opinions? anyone
Betsy

[ohlinger.s]

My guess would be the breeding. Being the 2nd dog is sired by a field champion it's built more capable of manuevering in the field. Show people are breeding merely on what meets the eye. The way the dog appears to be put togethor. Field breeders are breeding dogs that perform. A dog appears to move to well and appears to be put togethor and proportionate according to the show ring standards, field trialers are breeding there dogs that perform the best in the field. There is alot that goes into to breeding good hunting dogs besides just visual observation. The first dog may have stiffer joints that don't allow for as much flexibility at a full speed run but looks good at a trotting pace. There is alot put into a full range of motion. The dog sired by the FC may have taken more after it's sire in its joints and flexibility. Just b/c the dog "looks" good does'nt mean that inside it is as good as it looks. That is just my guess, and kind of my whole point behind my side of this topic. I just think that there is lessons to be learned by looking the whole picture instead of just field or show.

[TC]

In my observation between the two beagles posted the difference I see is that the CH bitch appears to be over loaded in the front and the rear is over angulated, this may be the cause of her short chopy steps. On the field hound the front is well put to gether from what I can see, however I would like a little more angulation, but in the field observation I have notice they are less angulated in the rear, however the field bred hound you posted is also longer in length which will contribute to the effortless flow of the dog due to the ability to properly place the feet at a good clip like described in the very first pages of this post on how a horse with a proper gait steps, has to have the length of back to be able to stretch those legs out and properly place the feet with out having to either clip the front foot step outside the front foot or inside which would make the hounds body strain to get placement where it shouldn't have to if the length was where it should be.