Show dog VS field dog conformation

[SilverZuk]

How many different stiles of trials and shows are we trying to make the beagle conform to these days? If we can't decide what the function is, where is the form suppose to go? So we will end up doing the same thing to our Beagles that we have already done to our Labs.

Got it, and see you point. Actually discussed this quite a bit relating to Original Mountain Curs.

Beagles have already gone the way you described, lots of different shapes, sizes, styles, and some that are still carrying beagle papers, but don't qualify by the breed standard.
Fortunately there are enough mixing of different style beagles and a relative conformation that most stick to that make most identifiable as beagles.
That goes to the next question, is a dog still the same breed because of papers or breed conformation?
I have seen plenty of unregistered beagles that are very good representatives of the breed. They are beagles, just happen not to be registered.
I have seen plenty of registered beagles that had papers and pedigree showing they were beagles, but you wonder if there was some "sneaky neighbor's dog" in the pedigree somewhere. They do not meet the breed standard. So are those poor specimens of the breed a beagle? They may win some big field titles, even though they look like a tri-colored greyhound.
Is it still a beagle because the papers say it is? At some point someone has to say nope, not a beagle.

I could care less if a dog is registered or not. If it is what I want, I will feed it and/or breed to it.
I like the beagle breed, plan to keep my breedings pure beagle because there are plenty out there that can get it done how I want that meet the breed standard.
If it were all about performance, I might breed my beagle to a coon hound, bird dog, fiest, or basset hound to get traits from other breeds. Bottom line is I don't see the benefit in crossing out of the breed to bring anything in to it.
If I thought one of those crossed would produce a superior rabbit hound, I would probably do it.

Wow, we are way off the subject now. I might have to start another thread and hope it goes where I thought this one would.

[blunder]

At least we are finaly on the same page

[SilverZuk]

To continue my ramblings, I really like the idea of UKC (I have never been to a UKC hunt), but from what I understand is that your dogs are measured and must meet the breed conformation before you can enter them into the competition. How strict, or how true that is I don't know because I am not currently involved in UKC. It may just be rumor for all I know.

Either way it sounds like a good plan, and it would be a great way to promote and improve a breed as a whole.
Your dog has to meet the breed conformation prior to entering the event. I see some logistical downfalls as far as actually running an elimination style hunt, but ideally the concept seems pretty good.

So that leads the next question, what percentage of the breed standard must be met for a beagle to be a beagle?
All my questions are rhetorical, and just for discussion.
I would own poodles if they would drive a rabbit in any conditions better than beagles...















...Well, lets not take it that far. If I owned poodles I would have to run them at night so no one would see me.

[blunder]

Sorry zuk, couldn't help myself

[SilverZuk]

How did you get a picture of my patch hound?

[Larry G]

S Zuk wrote:

Larry,
Why did you breed the non-hunting male and the brace female?
Because I wanted some good looking rabbit dogs, know a little about breeding them... I started in 1948, so even a slow learner like me has to have had a little sink in.
What clued you or the breeder in that it would be a good cross?
See above
The way you described them, I wouldn't have owned either one.
You listen to the wrong people. Ask Jeff (Ringtail) about his male from a brace bitch. And the male, he is now a show champion... you sure you wouldn't want him?
The beagle you have in the picture appears very nice as far as pictures go.
She's a fair specimen.
What are her faults (both running and conformation)?
Lacks that easy flow on the line, not much else left to be desired. Her eye and expression are fair at best.
Is she a proven reproducer?
Never been bred. Her sister has, and the pups were bred to be pets. The show beagles make wonderful pets, especially the females. Most do that is,not all of them. Some are a PITA.
This bitch has all the guts you could want, just not all the talent. She runs with a fault free style and has never been picked up at a field trial. Never won one either and likely never will. With her mixed bag genotype picking a mate to improve on her field ability would be like blind man's bluff. Breeding stock and using stock are two different things. It's so simple most people can't understand it.
I know of 2 beagles that were some of the most winning dogs of their day that were hybrid crosses.
They never reproduced anything worth feeding.

I can believe that.

[marr24]

First I just have to say that this is a good debate. I see your point Blunder with the different conformation of the field lab. It's true that many hunting/working dogs do not look a lot like their show counterparts but is this the fault of the working breeders alone? I would say not. I know that many of the herding groups' show dogs have changed looks so much that they are absolutely laughable when it comes to having the right conformation to actually do their job. I believe that owners of working border collies have gone so far as to start an entirely new registry for this reason alone. The German Shepard is another pathetic example of breeding for fads in the show ring. This is true with many sporting and hound breeds as well. Yes, there are standards in place, but many are vague and there are fads in the show ring just like there are in the hunting world. Another reason that there will always be different types of beagles is because of the great variance in terrain, weather conditions and other factors here in the U.S. I see no reason why there should be one box that every beagle must fit into.

[blunder]

"First I just have to say that this is a good debate. I see your point Blunder with the different conformation of the field lab. It's true that many hunting/working dogs do not look a lot like their show counterparts but is this the fault of the working breeders alone? I would say not."

Of course it isn't any one groups fault. IMHO when it becomes a problem that needs to be addressed is when we see dogs begin to brake down or are totally unable to do their intended job.
Going back to the labs, I mentioned both show Labs in this thread that can't outrun a wounded duck, and field Labs that have reached that point where they are falling to injuries that were hardly ever heard of in the past. Afraid to say that breed is quickly approaching the point of needing to find a way to start over.

[tiffinis]

How did you get a picture of my patch hound?

that is what I was thinking... Looks like sage comin at ya!

Here is a photo of my Lab. His sire is from Europe, international field trial champion. Grand sire is in the Labrador Museum. Mother American field Lab. I traveled quite a way out of my home area to find a dog I was comfortable enough with quality, health, temperament etc. I have turned away more females then we have bred. I insist on Certs either OFA or Penn Hip, but even that isnt 100% guarantee. But you have to agree, at least he LOOKS like a Lab is supposed to look!

[oakhill]

Man, he is awesome. Show us some more pictures.

[tiffinis]

The same face at 12 weeks.




Partners....



And our black bonehead... Onyx

[tiffinis]

Onyx Sage and Ryo... so who wins the retrieve?

[blunder]

How did you get a picture of my patch hound?

that is what I was thinking... Looks like sage comin at ya!

Only that one really is a Whippet

[blunder]

Another pic of Meg the grayhound ah-er Lab


Labs of the past, this is Ginger


Ginger at 5 weeks, intro to live birds


this is Blunder, how he got the call name is a long story, but rest assured that he earned it.


Blunder again, the pic has been color shifted for effect


Blunder again with pro models, pic was for a dog food add


this is Taso, a Blunder pup, the speedy one


Yankee Dude, same sire line as Meg's bitch line

[Larry G]

I kept labs and chessies myself for a long time, had a lot of fun with them. Now, would the owners and breeders of show type labs try to tell you their champs could go win the dock dog competition if they wanted to, because of better conformation? Probably, most show breeders are shameless...

And Zuk, I tried to figure out what you are after, gave up. You went from wanting good looking AKC rabbit beagles to grade poodles that run at night in one post.

Genetic diseases... oh, don't worry about that, say the inbreeders.... we'll cull out the defective ones.... soon as we figure out which ones are defective... now lookee here, this hound has 27 crosses of old Stubby in his 5 gen pedigree Now did that kind of thinking have anything to do with the neuromuscular disease in the labs, or was it just from breeding dogs that performed well?

Breeding of fine animals is a gamble, and sometimes taking a risk is justified, and sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it is a disaster as in the Amercan Quarter Horse called "Impressive" and his descendants which is just as sad as the Honcho story.