Show dog VS field dog conformation

[blunder]

"Now did that kind of thinking have anything to do with the neuromuscular disease in the labs, or was it just from breeding dogs that performed well?"

BOTH, because it is only the dogs that performed well that show up over and over. With neuromuscular it becomes a given if Honcho is in three of the 4 lines, and 50/50 if he is in two of the lines. The problem is the number of titled pups that he produced. For a few years if you wanted a FC sired pup, chances were that the sire would be a Honcho pup.

Now the same problem exists with Maxx sired FCs, there are now over 110 of them.
"Maxx is argueably the best sire the most prepotent sire of this era. Records show, in 2006, 8 dogs sired by him with 9 National wins. Five of these national wins occurred in the Canadian National Open and Canadian National Amateur. Names of titled offspring exceed 110 are too many too list here, but one bears mentioning. Chena River Chavez appears to have inherited the ability to pass on good genes to his offspring. " Chavez was sold for a quarter million dollars to be used as a stud. (Same people that baught "Lottie" for $265,000)

Btw, this is Maxx, he won a total of 4 national amateur stakes
http://www.pageweb.com/vinken/max.htm

[tiffinis]

I remember studying the "Impressive" gene a few years back. It is scary whether it be horses or dogs, that something like that can ruin many generations to follow, and that it takes so long to figure out and trace back.

[Larry G]

Let me pass on this that just happened. I sold a beagle bitch to a man in New York last week. He took her to his vet and found she had a heart murmur. He called and asked what to do. I said I will give your money back, and that she had never seen a vet except for a rabies shot. He said I am going to hunt with her tomorrow and I will decide what to do then. He liked her so well he kept her anyway. I have 2 bitch pups from her and they could have the same condition. What's the point here? Inbreeding. Her father was the product of a father/daughter mating. Am I saying that caused the problem? Not at all, it may have had nothing to do with it. The evidence that it CAN make such problems more likely to manifest themselves in highly inbred animals is indisputable.

Now it is possible, through expensive testing that most of us can't afford, to weed out the carriers of all these diseases we can't readily see. Most people putting dad on daughter won't bother, they just want to win a field trial.

[Beagled1]

I have 2 bitch pups from her and they could have the same condition. What's the point here? Inbreeding. Her father was the product of a father/daughter mating. Am I saying that caused the problem? Not at all, it may have had nothing to do with it. The evidence that it CAN make such problems more likely to manifest themselves in highly inbred animals is indisputable.

Inbreeding will only bring out recessives to the surface, and "lock" them into the line, just as it will preserve the good qualities. Those faults or strengths must be there to begin with, so you're correct in that this one inbreeding didn't really cause the problem, just magnified what was already there. Every line is going to have problems, there are things we can do tho to lessen their occurrence and breed away from them. They're still there, even if they don't show up, they are lurking beneath the surface. On that same note, if you do a father/daughter breeding & the line was relatively free of defects, you can have a litter of healthy pups. It's not so much the inbreeding but our breeding decisions.

Now it is possible, through expensive testing that most of us can't afford, to weed out the carriers of all these diseases we can't readily see. Most people putting dad on daughter won't bother, they just want to win a field trial.

We'll never be able to have perfectly healthy lines, but an ounce of common sense goes farther than a ton of money spent on tests to determine carriers. Obviously don't breed affecteds & if you have a dog that is throwing a problem in every litter or nearly every litter, he's obviously a carrier and needs to be culled OR you do the testing and breed him only to non carriers. I've done a father/daughter litter after I was sure of what they both produced & had great results. No health issues (knock on wood). You can just as easily get a litter of carriers or affecteds if you breed two carriers that are completely unrelated. Inbreeding has little to do with it, the only time it causes a problem, IMHO, is when the breeder is simply not bringing in any new blood and we start to see inbreeding depressions, bottlenecks ...

[Larry G]

How would you define inbreeding depression and how would you go about diagnosing it in your animals?

[Larry G]

Beagled1 wrote:

Inbreeding has little to do with it, the only time it causes a problem, IMHO, is when the breeder is simply not bringing in any new blood and we start to see inbreeding depressions, bottlenecks ...


Still waiting for you to tell us how you would be alerted to inbreeding depression, bottlenecks.... the literature defines inbreeding depression as a "lack of fitness in a population". In plants and some animals it can be blamed, for lack of a better word, for decreased yield and disease resistance as compared to prior generations. If you are milking cows and your production chart looks like a ski slope, you know you got problems. Now with your beagles what is the tipoff? What do you "see"?

[SilverZuk]

And Zuk, I tried to figure out what you are after, gave up. You went from wanting good looking AKC rabbit beagles to grade poodles that run at night in one post.

I want a rabbit dogs with exceptional hunt (search), a big nose, good temperment, and good conformation.
I would like to reproduce what I have got with a little more nose, and a little tighter on the track.
Overall, I am satisfied with my gip that is why I am breeding her.

I would really enjoy talking with you sometime to figure out how to take two dogs not worth feeding (by your own account) and make better than average rabbit dogs.

[Larry G]

And Zuk, I tried to figure out what you are after, gave up. You went from wanting good looking AKC rabbit beagles to grade poodles that run at night in one post.

I want a rabbit dogs with exceptional hunt (search), a big nose, good temperment, and good conformation.
I would like to reproduce what I have got with a little more nose, and a little tighter on the track.
Overall, I am satisfied with my gip that is why I am breeding her.

I would really enjoy talking with you sometime to figure out how to take two dogs not worth feeding (by your own account) and make better than average rabbit dogs.

Read this, and try to keep an open mind, not just knee jerk to what you have heard from potbellied, blue jeaned graybeards at tailgate sessions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis

Not that I don't have a potbelly and blue jeans, and need a shave.... heheheheh.

It may not work if you try to cross in the poodles.

PS: Not worth feeding means different things to different people, and I never said they were not worth feeding, I said they were not what I call good rabbit hounds.
If you want to see them, or the offspring, I can PM you the contact info of the new owners. If talking with them doesn't convince you, they would probably agree to let you visit. If you still don't believe it after seeing all the dogs in action, then you pay for the DNA. If you still don't believe it, good luck with whatever the hell you do believe.

[SilverZuk]

Read this, and try to keep an open mind, not just knee jerk to what you have heard from potbellied, blue jeaned graybeards at tailgate sessions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis

I read it, not to the detail where I studied it, but the real world result is pretty much a hybrid outcross.
You have similar hounds bred over and over for a few traits, meanwhile other traits are locked in and eventually supressed.
You throw a dog bred from different breeding program and it unlocks those supressed genes.
From my observations, the more heavily and longer dogs are linebred the more vigorous the hybrid outcross.

I have heard lots of theories on breeding. Some are rediculous, others are plausible, and some seem logical.

Some only breed in certain bloodlines, which quite often are based on one dog. They look at pedigrees, see how many times "Ole Blue" is the pedigree and make their decision based on that piece of paper. I have seen mixed results, but overall I feel it is not a sound method.

Some breed best dog to best dog. I really don't beleive that is the best method and have seen probably more bad results than good.

Some say breed opposites.

Some say breed dogs that are alike, but don't have the same faults.

Some are straight line breeders. I had it explained like this. You have ole blue and he is an exceptional dog. You breed him to a good female. Pups are half blue and the other half the gip.
Then you breed him to femal from that litter. Pups are 3/4 Blue and half the original gip.
Then you breed him to femal from that litter. Pups are 7/8 Blue and half the original gip.
I have heard this theorized, but talked to anyone who applied it.

I don't know blood lines inside and out. I am familiar with a few lines 2 to 3 generations back and know common traits carried in those lines. I know my gip's parents, some grand parents, and heard quite a bit about the others first hand.
I know what traits she carries by seeing these dogs run along with other offspring. She is a result of a dogs that come from lines with very similar traits, but bred two dogs that were on the opposite ends of a small spectrum.

Breeding for results is obviously not an exact science, or perfect dogs would be everywhere. All beagles would all look, sound, run, and act exactly the same. Overall dogs breedings are so mixed up as a whole, this isn't going to happen.

My thought process is I have a gip that has consistent characteristics through out her pedigree. I want something similar with a little more nose and tighter on the line. So I plan to breed her to a line that has similar traits as her lines, but are showing to have more of the traits I desire, while all others are very similar.
So I guess it is "breed similar dogs to similar dogs without the same faults" thought process.

I am not dead set on breeding her, and if I don't find the right male I will not breed her. I've got a lot to learn, and will probably generate some culls, some average rabbit dogs, and a few good ones if I stick to it long enough.

I'll shoot you a private message with my personal contact info. I would enjoy discussing this further on the phone if you have the time. I can call you, I don't have long distance charges. Or we can continue the discussion here.

[SilverZuk]

Oh, I forgot my absolute favorite method of breeding.
I'll call it, "Internet Pedigree breeding to magazine ads".

I get my females pedigree and post it on the internet (just talking dogs forum).
I then post a list of accomplised dogs - Reggie, Jasper, Junie, Rocky, Willy, etc.

And ask "What dog should I breed too?"

People will all cast votes for their favorite dog, and I assume the person breeds to one based on the comments.
Sometimes I throw comments in like "Have you ever seen [insert dog name] run?"
I am usually ignored because breeding to magazine ads or the top dogs of the day is so exciting, romantic, and produces dreams like buying that powerball ticket and planning on how you are going to spend the money.

I laugh everytime I see one of the those "Should I breed [insert pedigree] to this pedigree or that pedigree".
No consideration, or comment to the dogs in questions.

[S.R.Patch]

...

[Larry G]

Thanks Patch, I have never inbred dogs to that point. good to know you worked out of it.

Zuk, the only point I was trying to make on the breeding of dissimilars was that you can get an intermediate in some traits. There is a board member, Southern Beagles and she has studied the genetics of coat color. I believe she understands that all progeny does not have to be just like either mom or dad. The traits of mouth (tight, loose or none), trailing instinct, and nose power appear to sometimes if not most times be blended this way. For instance if you took a cold nosed, mouthy brace hound and bred it to a dachshund you might get about the right speed and mouth, might be a little long in the body . The Dachshund would not trail far and would likely just yip or run silent, which is about what most show bred beagles do.

Pigeon breeders have been on the edge as far as genetics go because there is big money in racing them, and pigeons breed year round and reproduce in just a few weeks, so they are a good study like fruit flies. They have tried a little of everything to produce race winners and what they call a "golden pair" (has produced big time racers) will sell for a fortune. You might want to read some of their stuff. Some I do not believe in completely, such as the claim of being able to evaluate a pigeon's racing and reproducing ability by looking in its eyes (eyesign). Here is a link to some of it.

http://www.shewmaker.com/

People giving breeding advice are usually promoting a stud dog of their own or a friend. I won't get involved except to say most of their claims are ridiculous, well did I really need to say that.... I have a friend who has a FC stud that has bred 100's of bitches and never produce a field winner much less a FC and his father produced well over 100 FC but was bred a lot of course. That's a no brainer I would breed my bitch to his father, even though as we are constantly reminded "past performance is no guarantee of future results".

[S.R.Patch]

...

[buckridge]

How did all this turn into a breeding , field dogs talk... I thought this was a show dog vs field dog conformation post.

[SilverZuk]

The thread didn't start out how I wanted.
I was hoping someone would post a picture of Uno and a typical running dog.
Then point to the differences between them and explain how come they are so much different between the two.
The discussion evolved into breeding about page 3 or 4.
Before it is over we will be discussing baseball, presidential candidates, and weather.