NBC 2005 BOB Ch. Windkist A Walk In The Park

[TouchstoneBeagles]

I believe every part of the beagle standard effects correct function. My goal is to develope hounds with perfect structure and perfect hunt. It seems like a long road but allready a few are on the right track. Getting litters of pups that are strong in both will take time. At first we will likely get a few superstars but most will be marginal in hunt or show. Developing bloodlines that consistently produce pups exceptional at both will take generations of selective breeding. With numerous breeders making a conscious effort the goal may not be as far off as some may think. Dan M

[Larry G]

Same here, Dan. I see so many irresponsible breeders locked in on one particular characteristic that the result is some kind of thing only a mother could love. Look what the brace trialers did to their hounds from about 1970 on to the present. At least I think they got away from all that inbreeding that was producing the malformed freaks back in the Pearson Creek era. Funny thing is, I tried to join a brace club, and the members, bless theirs souls, said I wasn't old enough (I'm just 64) and they were scared that I was not seriously interested in improving the breed as they are. You can imagine what my reply to that was. Something like, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it probably is a duck... or one of your field champions. No, I am not making this up, it is the Lure Beagle club in western NC.

Now let me hasten to add that I understand the rights of people to breed whatever they please, and that this type of dog has provided participation for a great many fine folks and that can't be a bad thing. The issue of turning their hounds into what they are today, and the problems with it, has been addressed very well by Wayne Price of Hounds and Hunting magazine. He hates, as I do, to see the title of field champion awarded based on a 50 foot "run" that takes about 15 minutes. Possibly that will change when some of the old die-hards cash in their chips.

Anyone reading who has some info and experience breeding the show blood into hunting beagles, please post and share it. My own is pretty skinny, bred one litter. Male is Lanbur, female brace trial blood. This was because I had been told the Lanburs threw tight mouth and rough. All the pups looked good, some are mouthy and slow like the dam, most are about right. Now I need to find a good male to breed to the young bitches. Any help appreciated.

[TC]

Anyone reading who has some info and experience breeding the show blood into hunting beagles

Well I think We would fit the bill for this LOL

Just remember patience and more patience
Do your home work look at the peds and breed your best to the best
by this i mean look at what you need to put into your Dogs Does the Stud or Bitch have what your looking For?
Do the lines that they are from Consistantly Throw those traits?
What has been Seen in the background that you may Expect and most importantly What you might not Expect
We started with a Bitcjh from a brace background also and bred to show lines then took and bred the get from that back into the show lines again then again into the hunt lines by furtue of the first cross.
And this is our Results so far.
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjcrewse/
Still got a ways to go to get waht we want!!!
But we got TIME

[Beagle Huntsman]

Why would anyone who desires to breed hunting beagles ever start with anything with a BRACE background? I'm not trying to criticize your method, but my goodness, there are plenty of people out there who have been crossing show lines on GOOD hunting stock, and doing it for years and years. Why try to re-invent the wheel, especially using brace stock?

Also, there are some show lines known to produce good hunting beagles, such as Echo Run or Bedlam, for example. Why would you use a line reported to produce hounds that are tight and rough?

Folks, are we doing the breed a favor by using inferior stock?

[Beagled1]

Why would anyone who desires to breed hunting beagles ever start with anything with a BRACE background?

Why would you use a line reported to produce hounds that are tight and rough?

Folks, are we doing the breed a favor by using inferior stock?

I own a few hounds out of brace bloodlines going back to the old Pearson Creek breeding via Hanks Jo Jo Blue & Emmons Blue Streaker. They are the best I own, and I also have Branko, Ace In the Hole and a touch of Gay & Indian Hills. These hounds are not tight or rough at all, and have more desire than all the other huonds combined. They live, breathe and dream bunnies ... They often work out the line while the others have given up on that particular check. They are no BS hounds and do not dissapoint me.
JMHO, but yes, if done correctly, breeding back to brace lines can definitely make vast improvements on the breed both hunt and conformation wise. You can have great success or a screw up with any field show/breeding (or any breeding for that matter) - I don't believe it makes a difference if you use brace lines or a show line well known for making nice crosses with field lines. Breeding compatible hounds is more important ...
Anyway, can't miss the opportunity for a shameless brag This is what happens when you cross "inferior" brace stock with show lines ... btw, once again, thank you TC for giving me the opprotunity to own her ... need to get newer pics of her tho ... lol

[Larry G]

Many of the hounds running SPO today are linebred Del Ray Stubby which goes back to Pearson Creek. This blood was crossed with harder hitting hounds and selectively bred to produce some fine rabbit dogs. Looks kinda went out the window, though, IMHO.

Not everbody liked this line, and I've read that Mr. Paul Short stated that, and I quote, "there is no Del Ray Shabby in my kennel" which did not sit too well with a lot of beaglers. Rumors then circulated that some of his hounds were sired by a small foxhound and therefore not entitled to AKC registration.

Now let me explain to beagle huntsman a basic concept of breeding called by Bob Wehle the "drag of the race" or a tendency toward mediocrity. He illustrated this by pointing out that tall men and women generally seek out tall mates, and short folks seek out short mates. So, you would expect the population to become very tall and very short. It doesn't, and breeding fine stock to fine stock does not always produce even finer stock. Sometimes you have to use (hopefully) offsetting undesireable qualities in your breeding to get what you want.

[TouchstoneBeagles]

Those who are interested in developing the total dog should have an organization with membership extended worldwide. What do you think?? For now we can have some effect by writing articles for magazines like the American Beagler.
As for the best way to get there... the end will likely justify the means. My personal plan. I started by studying show lines and I found a line that had strong hunt characteristics. An excellent brood bitch is a key ellement. Those who are kennel blind and insist on breeding up from where they are may slow the process.
Breed in only characteristics you desire. Example: Breeding a very fast, wild dog to a very slow accurate female will likely give you some of each not a litter full of medium speed dogs. Now someone will surely comment on this. No I'm not saying you can't get some medium speed dogs because many traits skip a generation. But now you have put both the very slow and the very fast and wild into your gene pool. It will likely show up again. I cringe every time I hear someone say I baught this pup to breed to my female. I believe it is better to evaluate the female and seek an excellent male that is strong and sireing dogs that are strong where the female is week both structurally and hunt. (No-one can see those traits in an 8 wk old pup.} If this is not a total outcross all the better. Outcrossing has a benefit to a breading program ( if the bloodline and not just that one dog is excellent for traits your line is lacking) but when it is done over and over no gene pool is developed to lock in traits. So it is important to breed back in after outcrossing. Getting even litters that all have the traits you desire should be the goal and will require line breeding. Read everything you can get your hands on. Time to run dogs!

[blunder]

Why would anyone who desires to breed hunting beagles ever start with anything with a BRACE background? I'm not trying to criticize your method, but my goodness, there are plenty of people out there who have been crossing show lines on GOOD hunting stock, and doing it for years and years. Why try to re-invent the wheel, especially using brace stock?

Also, there are some show lines known to produce good hunting beagles, such as Echo Run or Bedlam, for example. Why would you use a line reported to produce hounds that are tight and rough?

Folks, are we doing the breed a favor by using inferior stock?

That's pretty simple really, one mans trash is another mans treasure.
If we all liked the exact same look and all hunted in the same state, then we probablly could come to some sort of consences on what our dogs should be like. But,,, I can assure you hunting in the snow drifts of northern Utah requires a little different dog than hunting cut corn fields in Ohio.

[Larry G]

While I do not believe total outcross breeding is the best answer, there is no denying that it is a safer approach to producing sound animals than close inbreeding. Wayne Price wrote in an artilce for H&H that most all who tried it eventually bred themselves into a hole they could not get out of. Reason, he states, is that you not only intensify the good qualities, but also the bad. The bad is often hidden in recessive genetic traits that are not seen until several generations of line or in breeding expresses them. Then you see hip dysplasia, narcolepsy, dwarfism, bad bites, infertility, and the list goes on.

My approach is to find a male that has produced what I like from several females. About a quarter common blood may be OK, more than that is not good.

[sav]

What is more important conformation or hunt? You can't say both, one has to be more important to each of us than the other. I vote a resounding hunt hunt hunt. It's why they came into existence, it's what they have been used for centuries to do, it's what they where bred to do.

[Windkist]

What is more important conformation or hunt? You can't say both, one has to be more important to each of us than the other. I vote a resounding hunt hunt hunt. It's why they came into existence, it's what they have been used for centuries to do, it's what they where bred to do.

Conformation (construction) is important. Without a properly built hound you have something that will break down no matter what its "hunt" ability is.. Sure it may have enough Heart to drag itself around for a few years but, in the end it will not last. Both aspects in my opinion are important to our dogs.

Leah

[Beagle Huntsman]

First of all, I would not call Hank's Jo Jo Blue or Del Ray Stubby "brace" hounds. When someone says "brace", I take that to mean modern day brace hounds. Most of us have a little Pearson Creek in our hunting beagles (unfortunately, in my opinion), but the Pearson Creeks were from the 60s and 70s, so you are talking 30-40 years back. When someone says they used a "brace" hound in a breeding program, I assume they mean they went to a brace beagler and got a hound, not that their hound has brace bloodlines from 30 years ago. Hound styles can change an awful lot in 15 years, not to mention 30! I don't think today's brace beagles can offer anything to those of us desiring to produce hunting beagles, and nearly everyone outside of brace beagling would back me up on that.

I'm not the biggest fan of Paul Short's hounds, but I have tremendous respect for his abilities as a hound breeder. Few individuals have been as successful at what they set out to accomplish.

I'm very familiar with Bob Wehle. I have both of his books, and would highly recommend "Snakefoot" to anyone interested in breeding any type of dog. My point in questioning the method of using a "brace" female on a show male was that you practically have two extremes you are using to try to produce something smack dab in the middle. A better plan would have been to use a female that was already closer to what you wanted, and then try to improve on her with a show male from lines known to produce what you want. Someday when you point to those hounds in the pedigree, you'll be able to do it with pride.

Outcrossing vs. inbreeding: Both can be dangerous to an inexperienced breeder and should be used with caution. Probably a better method is linebreeding from a solid family. Finding such a family is not easy to do. Do you know why? Too much outcrossing going on today.

Conformation vs. Hunt? Yes, both are equally important in my opinion. One without the other gives you only half a hound. We could go on about this subject all day. I admire breeders who use both show and field lines, or hounds already from show and field lines, to produce a hound that has the hunting desire and ability, and the conformation to back it up. Few people are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to produce such an animal.

I'd like to try my hounds in Utah. I fully believe they would do just fine if given the time to adjust to the conditions. We don't have much snow in this part of Ohio. I'm thankful for that.

Go back up and read the post from Touchstone. He's right on target.

[blunder]

What is more important conformation or hunt? You can't
say both, one has to be more important to each of us than the other. I
vote a resounding hunt hunt hunt. It's why they came into existence, it's
what they have been used for centuries to do, it's what they where bred
to do.

Actually no,,,, one is most definitely not more important than the other,
because "form follows function". Where we as breeders run into problems
is when we change the function, the form is bound to follow. (style of
hunting or trends in showing)

Want the hounds to run faster, that will change their form
Want the dogs to show more bone, that will change their function

tom

[TC]

We started with a Bitch from a brace background

Kristinas little Rose the start of our Breeding Came from A brace Background or So I was Told and I know she was a little to Fast for The brace trials I went to LOL

Sire=Page's Rusty Nails Sire=Bow Hill Rusty
Dam=FC Robinson's Joann

Goes back to FERN CREEK PAM and FC BEE LICK COBRA




Dam=Poka-Dot Page sire=Pages' Gem Louis
Dam=JCS Genuine Diamond Dusty

Goes back to FC COUNTRY TOWN TOBIE-T and TRAKARAB TEXAS COWGIRL

So maybe yall can tell me what kinda Dogs these Were!

[Larry G]

Beagle Huntsman, my feeling is that you cannot get the looks some of us want in our dogs by using only today's field stock. The only alternative is to breed in some show blood. If I had had access to a show line that has proven field ability, I would have used it. You mentioned Bedlam, Little Ireland and Echo Run. I have only seen the Bedlams, 3 years ago at Aldie. I was not impressed with either their looks or performance. The Echo Run hounds look good from pic's on the 'net, and I would certainly consider a breeding to one of them. I commented to one of the MBH's that his pack was quite attractive, almost show quality. He said please don't insult my dogs. We don't like show beagles.

I just got back from running 3 of the pups from the cross you said doesn't make sense, and they kept the rabbit going for over an hour at a good pace, no pottering, babbling idiots here, and while I fully appreciate that they would never win an AKC show event, man do I ever get a lot of admiring comments from those who see them. And, I really don't care that your average Joe Redneck at the SPO trial "never heered uf whut they're out uv".