NBC 2005 BOB Ch. Windkist A Walk In The Park

Beagle Huntsman · Post by **Beagle Huntsman** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:28 pm

Try bowing your legs and walking around for awhile. "Heart" or stamina can keep you going, but it ain't easy.....

The more I continue to study conformation and its effect on hunting function, the more convinced I become that the greatest benefit from conformation is measured more in years of service than anything else. Almost any beagle, if properly conditioned, can last long enough to win a trial, or run rabbits all night, or hunt a few days a week. However, over time, the body starts to break down, and a properly built animal will give more years of service.

I run my hounds as a pack. I really never run less than 7 or 8 hounds at a time, and usually take out 14-16. What conformation does in a pack hound is allow it to "run up" for more seasons, meaning that the older hounds, by virtue of their solid conformation, can keep up with the younger hounds. They may no longer be the leaders of the pack, but they are just behind. This allows an older hound to be "in place" to get a check when the young hounds need help, instead of boo-hooing along trying to catch up. I cannot stress enough how important this is to good packwork....can't beat those wise old heads.

To the average field trial beagler, this means very little. Most trials don't run long enough to test for conformation, but SOME do test stamina. Most trialers are interested only in individual hound performance, so there is no desire to see packwork, nor do most people keep that many hounds, etc. So there really is little incentive to believe in or breed for conformation.

TC is correct about the old hounds and the conformation they had. Up until the 1930s, there was much emphasis on conformation. There were spring shows and fall trials each year. Then someone invented spring derby trials, which led to year-round trialing, and the show and trial beagles started to go separate ways, and pretty much have ever since.

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:16 pm

Stanima is the product of conditioning not breeding

I could possibly believe that if I didn't run dogs as much as I do. I see it first hand and yes I can see by bloodlines. I have a couple of dogs you could lay up for a month and they'll still be running when others dogs have had enough. Dogs can't hide much when I watch them run 330+ days a year.

Yes, conditioning is important but to say if conditioned the same they will both have the same amount of bottom is incorrect.

No, stamina is a trait. All my dogs are conditioned about the same. Yet, they do not all have the same bottom.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:26 am

Incahoots wrote:
Stanima is the product of conditioning not breeding
I could possibly believe that if I didn't run dogs as much as I do. I see it first hand and yes I can see by bloodlines. I have a couple of dogs you could lay up for a month and they'll still be running when others dogs have had enough. Dogs can't hide much when I watch them run 330+ days a year.

Yes, conditioning is important but to say if conditioned the same they will both have the same amount of bottom is incorrect.

No, stamina is a trait. All my dogs are conditioned about the same. Yet, they do not all have the same bottom.

Hunting desire (bottom) is a completely different thing still, with absolutely no relationship to a dogs speed or it's conditioning or stamina. I have had Retrievers that would go until they drooped over dead regardless of how fast they were or what kind of shape they were in. Just like a Retriever being birdy (or not), the hunting desire in Beagles can be different between littermates,, don't even need to get near the difference between a field bred or show bred.

tom

sav · Post by **sav** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:29 am

T.C. wrote:
"Yes there is many a beagler out there that thinks their dog is a tool to do a job, but those dogs give their all and it is a shame that many break down early in life from over exertion stemming from not having the proper build and or over doing it and some think that the dog just lost his hunt so get rid of him when that dog gave his all to ya... That dog probably gave that hunter the best years of his life and the thanks he gets is he lost his hunt so I'm gettin rid of him attitude takes over."

I couldn't agree more which is why I watched T.V for 2 hours with both my pups sleeping on top of me, no better way to bond with a dog than some couch time

But is it not just as cruel to cull a dog for poor structure, or not perfect structure, when they posses hunting desire enough for two dogs? Or thinks less of a hunting dog because it has less than perfect structure? I guess what I'm trying to say is heart and desire go a long way with me, someone has to love the ugly duckling.

"Sav, this is where you are very wrong, if you will go back and look at hounds of 1949"
I said hounds from centuries ago, the beginning of the breed. I would be willing to bet that all "working" dogs came into existence out of necessity, and that necessity was not to gather and show off conformation, it was to hunt and contribute to the family. So to me hunt is more important that structure though I would always want both if possible. I'm not blind to the benefits of structure, I just don't think it is the be all end all, certainly not in the day to day hunting community. When I was a kid we had a three legged lab that could retrieve geees in the field day after day. Missing one leg you would certainly say his structure was compromised, but no one told him he was supposed to break down early in life, he was still hunting with me at the age of 12, it was a bus that ended his hunting career.

I want to be clear on this point, I do believe structure is important in the makeup of any dog, but we shouldn't lose sight of what the breed was intended to do. If there was only one mating pair of beagles left in this great big world, would you want them to be gundogs with tonnes of hunt and decent structure, or stunningly well put together hounds who couldn't trail a rabbit if they tried?

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:38 am

but we shouldn't lose sight of what the breed was intended to do

Absolutely no one disputes that.
Reason being,,, anytime "function" is changed,,, "form" will follow, thus proper structure will be lost.

With regard to field dogs the question we will eventually have to ask is "how is a Beagle suppose to hunt" just what is correct for the breed???
Not a hell of a lot different than what show Beaglers have to ask themselves is it.

tom

sav · Post by **sav** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:40 am

So this begs the question what is the function of the modern beagle?

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

sav wrote:So this begs the question what is the function of the modern beagle?

Absolutely
And only we have control of that.

sav · Post by **sav** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:00 am

Tom, I'm not sure if I understand your answer to my last question, but you might have missed a creer in politics lol

Tom said "With regard to field dogs the question we will eventually have to ask is "how is a Beagle suppose to hunt" just what is correct for the breed???
Not a hell of a lot different than what show Beaglers have to ask themselves is it. "

Good point I think as long as they hunt we are OK, but when they lose the desire to hunt, or we are more concerned with structure and conformation and forget about the hunt. That's my worry.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:22 am

There isn't a need to worry about show breeders understanding the need for function. What there is a need to worry about is that the function lacks definition. While the breed standard stipulates exactly what the dogs tail should be like, no where in the standard does it stipulate how the dog should hunt. How fast should a Beagle run??? How far should a Beagle range??? Should Beagles hunt alone, as a brace, or in a pack????? We could add to the list of questions ad infinitum.

tom

sav · Post by **sav** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:26 am

So once agian I ask; what is the function of the modern Beagle?

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:38 am

sav wrote:So once agian I ask; what is the function of the modern Beagle?

Trialers & hunters will have to determine that deffinition, problem is there are so many different kinds of trials, and the dog are hunted in so many different ways. Each with there own discription of function.

Just look at some of the comments about "brace dogs" in this thread.

tom

Windkist · Post by **Windkist** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:55 am

Incahoots wrote:
Kinda makes sense doesn't it? If you have bad feet, down in the pasturns, poorly constructed rear etc.. but drive to hunt wouldn't a dog who was constructed well with the same drive last longer and be better conditioned? I'm not talking looks here but, basic structure. By all means lets not get Looks confused with good conformation or skeletal structure.
Cool, I have total dogs then. They can run day after day and look better and better as other dogs hit the wall.

However, to leave stamina out as a trait and place it all on structure would be short sighted.

I agree! Stamina is important and to a degree I do believe that its genetic in nature as well as a product of conditioning. I have a line of dogs that can lay in the kennel all day and do nothing yet are well muscled. Not that I allow them to do that but, over the winter sometimes we'll get some lazy butts that don't want to do much.. The majority of my dogs are running from sunup to sundown in our big yard.

Leah

TouchstoneBeagles · Post by **TouchstoneBeagles** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:30 am

Keep in mind the breed standard remains nearly the same worldwide.
The hunt standard changes according to the registries format. It concerns me that formats that require a great amount of speed in a 2hr hunt may tend to produce and promote physical characteristics for speed that would deviate from correct breed type. It is my opinion that a correctly structured beagle leans more to the medium or medium fast speed. Running the front of the pack is obtained by the physical abillity to turn on a dime where the rabbit turned rather than overrunning even though the dog smells the turn. Some dogs must compensate to physically get turned. Many make a small circle to get turned. Correct structure and balance is a blessing. Excellent line control also helps keep the dog in front and conserve energy that is a true blessing in the all-day hunts. A dog that runs too fast wastes too much energy and slows the actual progression of the track.
NOTHING CAN REPLACE HUNT DESIRE and it is genetic. Excellent conditioning surely enhances that important genetic trait. Dan M

Beaglebrit · Post by **Beaglebrit** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:26 pm

Hunt and desire and HEART are very elusive qualities in a field dog. My primary breed is Brittanys..500 AKC DC to date...Some of these dogs have so much heart and desire that OFA Severely displastic dogs in one hip can remain competive in one hour braces.
My first Field beagle Davis was a very poor conformation!!!!I mean very poor...that dog's legs were so crooked..strait shouldered..cow hocked .. splayed feet...down in the pastern..you name it Davis had that fault...But the more you conditioned Davis the harder he ran..You could not pull that dog down!!! Heart and Desire were what kept him running and working . Was he pretty? No..Could he run a Rabitt?.. YES...Did folk sit up and take notice..Yes..but he is not in our breeding program due to poor conformation

marr24 · Post by **marr24** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:45 am

Hunt and desire and HEART are very elusive qualities in a field dog

I can't really agree with that, at least with beagles, I've yet to be around a field-bred beagle that DIDN'T have all three of those qualities. I believe that's why many people feel that breeding hunting hounds to show hounds should be a practice in extreme caution. In my opinion, there are plenty of beagles bred for hunting ability that have good conformation, and better yet, they have proved it in the field.