Show pup CO-ownership.

[blunder]

Well now lets do some comparison here since you opened that can of worms.

ok,, lets do that, how about this guy (Stryder)

or would you rather go up against his sister (Barbie)
titled with three 5 point majors from Bred-by class

or maybe (wisper) would be more to your liking
being as she just went best of winners from bred-by at PABC (nationals)
(her littermate won open class and went Reserve Winners at PABC)


My suggestion;
when someone wants to add performance to their show line, pay a stud fee and go for it
when someone wants to add conformation to their field dogs, pay a stud fee and go for it
It really is that simple

[samlyn0001]

I must ask which do you think this hound is? Show or hunting? Why? NO CHEATING by looking at the website!





Is it possible he could be both????

[blunder]

Compair the angulation of the front shoulders with the pics above. It is that angulation that gives field bred Beagles the unbealivable reach that they have. This is also the reason that almost always selling a show pup to field homes doesn't work out. The show pup simply can't keep up with a well bred pack of field Beagles, so guess what it does when the pack gets on a track?? It falls behind and quits!! So the field owner says the show pup can't run a rabbit.
Well in most cases it can, just not at the same speed as the rest of their dogs.
Did I pick the right catagory for your dog???
Nice looking 'double dark' either way
bet he had a cool set of racoon eyes as a pup

[TC]

Ok I don’t understand how we got from the original Question About Contracts into a foo foo dog Contest!!
So I will ask Again
WHY A Contract????
Do you use the limited registration Clause on the papers until the dog has reached What you feel is the Buyers obligation?
Do you purchase your Dogs on a contract? On a Co Ownership and if not WHY?


Now I have a Couple more Questions I would like Answers to From a SHOW breeder!
How long can your Dogs last in the field? Can they run all day? Is this not part of the Standard?

Another Question I have is Do you Feel that the Show breeder has bred the hunt out of their Dogs and if No Give Examples?
Why have the Show Breeders Done this?

Where is the FORM and FUNCTION?

How many people are there that would have the money or time to campaign a show dog, and campaign their field dogs at the same time.

More than you may think! Here in the Northwest it is a lot harder Granted, But What about in the East or the South Where you can hit a trial and show in the same weekend!
Oh That’s right they might get scratched up and the judges Don’t like that Do they??
WHY? How does havin a few Scratches Show that the Dog Does not have the proper Conformation? Would seem to me that it would show that maybe Just maybe this Dog is the real Deal!!!!!!
You know I have heard all the Stories from Trialers about Buddy Judging Man oh man they aint seen nuthin till they get in the Show Ring LOL



I will ask this one Again!!!

The BEAGLE is the same breed whether is competes in conformation or field so don't you think they should have both abilities and conformation?

Don't we all wish, but unfortunatlly it is doubtfull if we will ever see those days again.

WHY? How do you figure? Is it because the Show breeders refuse to stay true to the breed? That they are trying to change the dog to meet the fancy? How is this bettering the breed? I hear that all the time!

How is breeding the hunt out of the beagle bettering the breed?


.

It is that angulation that gives field bred Beagles the unbealivable reach that they have. This is also the reason that almost always selling a show pup to field homes doesn't work out. The show pup simply can't keep up with a well bred pack of field Beagles, so guess what it does when the pack gets on a track?? It falls behind and quits!! So the field owner says the show pup can't run a rabbit.
Well in most cases it can, just not at the same speed as the rest of their dogs.

Ok So What you are saying here is that There ARE Two Separate Breeds of Beagle?????
Then Why is their Just one Standard????
Shouldn’t the Show Beagle be the Same as the Field beagle?
So are you saying the field beagles have conformation for the purpose in wich they were developed for?? If so why aren't you (and other show breeders) conforming to the standard??rather than trying to change the breed for the fanciers.

[blunder]

WHY A Contract????

Because what I will do/not do is best spelled out on paper. That way there are no missunderstandings.

Do you use the limited registration Clause

Only on a pup that should not be considdered for breeding (testicals didn't drop or something like that).

Do you purchase your Dogs on a contract?

Yes

On a Co Ownership

Sometimes (one at this time (Roger) (three of us went in togeather to buy him)

How long can your Dogs last in the field? Can they run all day

Some can, some I would guess not (impossable portion of the standard to judge in the show ring) Conditioning is something that an athelete does, not something that they were born with.

Do you Feel that the Show breeder has bred the hunt out of their Dogs

To a large extent yes (just like with almost every other breed)
Just like field breeders have bred the conformation out of theirs (just like with almost every other breed)
And yes "form follows function" that is why show dogs normally dont look like field dogs, their function is different (sad but true)

Here in the west there are virtually NO field events for Beagles, other than "coursing"

WHY? How do you figure? Is it because the Show breeders refuse to stay true to the breed?

I think there is enough blame for everyone, so don't leave the field breeders out of that.

If you will notice at the bottom of my signature, we also have field dogs (different breed) so believe me, I am well aware of both sides of this argument.

[TC]

Thank You
And yes you are correct the blame goes Both ways!!!!!

[show dog]

I have a show bred bitch here that I showed and LPH trialed at the same time. She had the brains and speed for field but not a good nose or patience. She could run all day, that is conditioning. She had a vaccine reaction which damaged her body so didn't want to be handled so stopped her show career. She is now spayed.

The last show pup I bought had an involved contract but there was no return of money on a championship. I paid the whole shot, had to use a stud recommended by breeder and spend all my time to further the breeder's kennel name etc.. She went back to the breeder.

Next pup will be different. When I sold pups, I had a spay neuter contract because there are enough dogs out there and people starting out need to think about the care of the dog.

What I have seen in field dogs is poor front and rear ends, extra long backs, eye colour not in standard, lack of handling ability (don't handle dog cuz won't hunt independently, bs), small ears because the emphasis is on nose ability, rest doesn't count.

So there is good and bad in both areas. Look at any of the sporting dogs and you will see the same thing happening- a show golden retriever would drown because they are so heavy and coats are too thick, field golden is small, light coat and isn't seen in show ring. Beagles aren't the only ones in this dilemma.

Carolyn

[TOUCHSTONE]

Interesting thread. There is only one true reason why few beagles have the total package of form and function. Few breeders have bred to develop the total dog. A dog that is correct according to the standard will have the physical abillity for speed, stamina to hunt all day, turn on a dime/line control, stay free from injury, follow scent in extreme conditions, etc. Where I find them to be lacking is in the instinct for correct hunt characteristics. Dogs that have been bred for hunt only without respect for structure also fall short. Gaining knowledge in both areas is the key to success. I have talked to many field people who do not know anything about structure or the beagle standard. Many show people do not even know their dogs hunt characteristics because they have not hunted them. The registries do not promote the total dog and people breed for success in their area of competition. The sad but true outcome is that our breed is held back from it's true potential. It will be necessary to have a meeting of the minds between show and hunt breeders to reach the goal. Foofoo show dogs with no hunt can be very sucessful and I have seen big winning hunt dogs with very poor structure that are also succesful. Many breeders breed to the winners in their area of competition instead of evaluating the total dog. No registry rewards the total dog so why bother. The first crosses between show and hunt may produce specimens marginal at both so why bother. The goal of achieving the total dog must be strong enough to overcome the obstacles encountered by the process. Dan M

[TC]

Very good post Dan and I agree 100% we need to look honestly at the whole dog not just one aspect when choosing to breed to get the total dog and it may take a while to get there, but in the mean time will have a blast working towards our goals.

[thornie]

Hey theres some good post and disscussions going on here. Here's my 2 cents. You send me those dogs that can't stay with those faster dogs and I'll find a place in the hunting field where they can become CH, GRCH. I don't have the quailty of show dogs that I've seen on here, but I've made a few in UKC and Arha. The picture of the cat I got a chuckle out of it, because a friend told me one time, he could give me an old tom cat and I could make it a bench champion. Here's your next challenge bring those dogs that you say that can run with the fast dogs and come run with me. I'm sure that I have something to run there speed. Here's my phone number 740-622-6995 or thornie@localnet.com.