Show pup CO-ownership.

[SouthernBeagles]

(This post is not directed towards ONE breeder but to ALL that require this wording in your contract. It is just my opinion but something I wish you all would consider and understand and not meant as a personal attack).

For the life of me I can't understand why so many show breeders require contracts on your puppies! The way I see it is IF you feel like your pup is show potential, you need to keep that pup and show it yourself or sell it to someone you BELIEVE will try to finish the pup.
The most common stipulation I have seen is this CO-owner nonsense. You get to raise the pup, pay for ALL of it's vet bills, feed bills, entry fee to shows and all of the other what nots that go along with raising a healthy show pup BUT you only own HALF the dog until it finishes??? What is up with that???? I have even seen breeders go as far as to tell the owners (ha) what dog they can breed to by approving the stud!
This may be common practice but in my humble opinion it is WRONG! Would you buy a car without a title?? NOO!!!!!!!!! What if I told you I would GIVE you the title if you won the car show with it but in the mean time I wanted to own half the car until you won the car of the year award??? You would tell me to get lost!!!
I think it is about control! You put a lot of time and thought into your breeding programs and want to make sure your pups have the best care and best chance of finishing. Am I wrong??
Well, I got news for you. The second you put a price on that pup and it leaves your property, your job is through and all you can do is HOPE for the best. If you are that concerned that your dog won't get the chance you think it deserves, you need to raise it yourself. If I pay $700+ for a pup, it is MINE to do with what I please. Fot that matter if I pay $50.00 for a pup it's mine to do with what I please. If I want to breed it to a non worthy field hound, Sorry you may not like it but it is MINE. If I choose not to show it, it's MINE. Your job stops the second you sell it. On the other hand, if I go out and finish that pup as a CH YOU should be proud of a job well done as the breeder and you WILL get the credit!

[show dog]

I quite agree with you and will not buy a pup as co owner. I have seen way too many hassles with co ownership and little benefit to the person (purchaser) that pays all the bills for the pup. Now if the breeder (co owner) payed half of everything, that would be different. Plus when you buy a pup at 8 weeks, there is no guarantee that pup will show or trial or even be alive at 6 months to start a championship. Then you have a contract that may not be attainable and the big time hassles start. I was mistreated this summer by a breeder and was sure glad I wasn't in a co ownership position or I would have lost all my money not just some of it. Carolyn

[blunder]

There are a lot of different cercomstances that make co-ownership viable.
I will use a well known kennels (different breed) as an example.
Mary Howley probably own 50 dogs, she is allowed by the county she lives in to have three dogs on her premeses. Her breeding stock is in pet homes with her retaining co-ownership. Her running dogs are of course with a pro. Over the last 20 years almost half of the Retriever NFC and NAFC's have had "Candlewood" as part of their name. So don't think for a second that co-ownership doesn't work.
I have no idea what breeders you have been dealing with, but from your discription maybe I don't want to know because it doesn't sound like they have any idea about what they are doing.
The one thing I did notice by your web page (nicely done BTW) is that yours is a "running kennels", so why as a breeder of "show dogs" would someone want to sell you a show quality puppy???? I know that with us, running quality pups only go to running homes, and show quality pups only go to show homes. Pet quality pups go to to the rest.
While our pups are sold on a contract, there are only a few ever sold as co-owner (normally to someone that is needing a hand getting started)
tom

[oakhill]

Actually, there should not be a difference in show quality and running quality. Beagles are suppose to have good conformation and are bred to run a rabbit. That is what I thought a beagle was. I do understand that most show beagles have better conformation than what you would call a "running beagle" because that is what the show people strive for. And "running beaglers" have hounds that can burn the hair off a rabbit because that is what is most important to them. It is too bad that we can't get the complete picture as JC and TC from Crewse-N Beagles and Southern Beagles who work hard to produce hounds that have both. The complete beagle with great conformation and the ability to bring the rabbit around to the gun.

Why would someone NOT want to sell SB a show quality hound??? I would hope the show quality hounds would be able to run a rabbit.

So tell me, since Mary can only have three dogs, does she just provide the studs to produce the pups from the hounds that are in pet homes and the working hounds with the pro??? Does she decide which hounds are bred to whom??? Is that how she gets her name on the registration cert??? What is the varible that makes this work??? And what major part does she play to take credit for this achievenment??? Pay for food, vet check, shots, registration fees, etc???

Sorry, I gotta agree with SB on this one. These so called contracts appear to me to be a power play where someone can stick their noses into someone else's business.

[TC]

BLUNDER WROTE:
why as a breeder of "show dogs" would someone want to sell you a show quality puppy?

Well I will tell you why a show breeder would sell Southern Beagles a "SHOW QUALITY" hound, for one she may not show the hound but if your so called show quality dog was to her eye and experience had the conformation to add to her kennel and could run a rabbit she not only would field trial that dog she would bench show that dog. My question to you is what is wrong with breeding a field hound to a show hound, do ya think that it is ruining your dog? NO, it is not! your dog won't get a disease or become instantly ugly. If you haven't noticed there are many a Field Hound on this board that have Show background. Where did that come from?

I agree with Oakhill and Southern Beagles, the Show contract is a control issue, my take on this is to prevent competition for the pup market. If you don't want the dog bred then by all means spay or neuter the dog before you sell it. I agree someone pays good hard earned cash for a dog it is their dog. I will not do a puppy contract ever again, got stung once will not do it again.

[blunder]

So tell me, since Mary can only have three dogs, does she just provide the studs to produce the pups from the hounds that are in pet homes and the working hounds with the pro??? Does she decide which hounds are bred to whom??? Is that how she gets her name on the registration cert??? What is the varible that makes this work??? And what major part does she play to take credit for this achievenment??? Pay for food, vet check, shots, registration fees, etc???

Read here
http://www.bird-dog-news.com/Article/MtbC.html

The reason that many show breeders wouldn't sell SB a show prospect puppy is simply that (going by what is on his web site) he doesn't show them. At least I didn't see any on there with "CH" in front of their name.
This is no different than when I see a puppy that shows the potential of becomming a FC there is no way that it will go to a home that won't give it every chance possable to become a FC.

My question to you is what is wrong with breeding a field hound to a show hound

Not a thing wrong with that,,,, but and it is a huge but, if that is all that the dog is going to be used for, I won't have any part of it. And, that is the fear of most show breeders

tom[/b]

[oakhill]

WEll, looks like she picks the right bitches to breed to the right studs and the folks who take care of these hounds let her have the credit while they do most of the work.

[TC]

Well like I stated above it is greed is why they put a contract on the pup, tell me the BEAGLE is the same breed whether is competes in conformation or field so don't you think they should have the same abilities and conformation?

If that show hound cannot run a rabbit then it is the same as a poor conformation hound. I would say that a hound that cannot run a rabbit has no business being promoted as a dog to represent the breed whether it is top conformation or not.

Why is there such a division between a show and field dog they are the same breed, no where did I read that there is a difference in the standard?

[blunder]

Well like I stated above it is greed is why they put a contract on the pup,

I don't think I quite understand that comment.
If we sell a "pet quality pup", it is a spay/nueter/health guarentee contract, how does that involve greed?
If it is a "show/field quality pup" it stipulates reinbursement of purchess price dependent on accomplishments/health guarentee contract, again how does that involve greed?????

WEll, looks like she picks the right bitches to breed to the right studs and the folks who take care of these hounds let her have the credit while they do most of the work.

But you can't deny that it works.
Know anyone else that has bred 10 National Champions???
Also the family has a quality dog (often one that is worth thousands of dollars) for next to nothing that they get to hunt over and enjoy. Most of those dogs have also been proffecionally trained and titled. Have you checked into how much it costs to put a FC on a dog lately??? Sure wish she would let one live with me!!!!!!

tom

[TC]

Well I guess greed is not the word I should have used more like CONTROL
Control Of the Cost!
Control Of the breeding!
Control Of the DOG
Control Of the Buyer
ECT.

it stipulates reinbursement of purchess price dependent on accomplishments/health guarentee contract

Well when and if this happens Do you get the Dog back or does the purchaser/co owner get to keep the Pup?
most know the emotional Attachment that folks get to thier Dogs Would YOU give one back? say after having it for a year or more! More than likely NO! So unless they give the Dog back NO Money Correct? So its a Win Win for you. You get to keep your money on a dog that you may or may not have known Would reach its championship. NOW tell the truth Would you even Sell a dog that YOU KNEW was gonna be a champion? So this person or persons Actively Campaigns a dog FOR you!! If it reaches its Championship you get the credit if it Dont you still have the money because more than likely these folks are not gonna give up the Dog.
Oh Buy the way you didnt answer My Questions!

The BEAGLE is the same breed whether is competes in conformation or field so don't you think they should have the same abilities and conformation?

Why is there such a division between a show and field dog they are the same breed, no where did I read that there is a difference in the standard?

WHY Wouldnt you sell a Show Quality to a Field home???
Caint the Dog do Both?

How would this hurt it?

[blunder]

Well when and if this happens Do you get the Dog back or does the purchaser/co owner get to keep the Pup?

They keep it. (does that shock you??) the one stipulation is that our kennel name is included in the dogs registered name. The norm would be to reimburse 25% when the dog finishes, and 5% for every major accomplishment thereafter until the purchess price is paid back in full.
It would be nice if they offered to let us use it for a stud, or give us a pup out of it, but that is up to them.

And;
Control of costs is of course a major factor

The BEAGLE is the same breed whether is competes in conformation or field so don't you think they should have the same abilities and conformation?

Don't we all wish, but unfortunatlly it is doubtfull if we will ever see those days again.
since you just finished a dog I'll let you compair and say "why not"


I'll bet that the SB bitch in the top pic is a rabbit hunting fool, and a dog that most would give their eye teeth to have, but the fact is that it would not be a good candadate for the show ring.
The bitch in the bottom pic is a nice looking dog, and also one that most would give their eye teeth to own, but if you want to hunt her, I hope you don't mind hunting at half speed.
Just compair the feet, there is no need to go any further.
The fact is the blame is on both sides of the fence.

WHY Wouldnt you sell a Show Quality to a Field home???
Caint the Dog do Both?

Show quality pups don't grow on to many trees, out of a litter (average of 5) there will normally be one exceptional pup, and maybe one or two that would be considdered "finishable". So why would I want to send one of those 2 or 3 pups to a home where it will probably not be shown?
Its expencive to campaign a dog, you know that! How many people are there that would have the money or time to campaign a show dog, and campaign their field dogs at the same time.

[oakhill]

Why did you go to this person's web site, pick out a dog, and post the picture and then put one of your best hounds on the board???

Why not address the question asked instead of trying to bash someone elses hound?????

[SouthernBeagles]

Blunder
That dog is 9 years old and has NEVER I repeat NEVER been bred due to her conformation. She is my puppy trainer. I competed her once just for kicks in the AKC and she placed. I refused to carry her back because I didn't want a bitch I wouldn't breed to have a title no matter HOW good she ran.

Is this the best you can do??? Throw fancy words around and post pictures of my ugly dog??
My post was to point out the control and arrogance some of these show breeders (and yes buddy you bit the hook line and sinker) want to keep over their pups and what a rip off it is. Why not answer the questions that were asked of you since you jumped in here, lol.

[TC]

I don't know why you went out to Southern Beagles Web site and took a pic of her dog you have no idea anything about and arbitrarily posted it as like it was her top producing dog, of course you took the worst one out of the lot to post now tell me why didn't you want to compare hounds, I noticed you didn't take a copy of her Ellie Mae dog to do that little comparison.

Well now lets do some comparison here since you opened that can of worms.




This Bitch is ALL FIELD I would put her up in any show to your hound.

[blunder]

Blunder
That dog is 9 years old and has NEVER I repeat NEVER been bred due to her conformation. She is my puppy trainer. I competed her once just for kicks in the AKC and she placed. I refused to carry her back because I didn't want a bitch I wouldn't breed to have a title no matter HOW good she ran.

Is this the best you can do??? Throw fancy words around and post pictures of my ugly dog??
My post was to point out the control and arrogance some of these show breeders (and yes buddy you bit the hook line and sinker) want to keep over their pups and what a rip off it is. Why not answer the questions that were asked of you since you jumped in here, lol.

What question haven't I answered?????
I also posted up my slowest dog that I would least want to hunt over, so the comparison is exactlly as I intended!!!!!! Yours being all go and no show and mine is all show with no go!!!!!