Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

[Jane]

Well said Cindy.

[ohlinger.s]

I don't care what anyone else, field or show, thinks about my vision for the future of my Beagles.

Jeeeesssshhh... LOl thats not the kind of advice or information i was hopeing to find from the show experts on here but i'll take that as my cue to shut up on this subject i think i see how it is around here. You all enjoy yourselves and good luck in the future who knows maybe you'll see a thirtyoughtsix dog that i own in a show ring sometime haha "Maybe"!!

[Honey Pot Hounds]

I feel that the hare hounds are entriely to long. You can still get good lung capacity with a shorter back /loin dog. If there is enough room behind the rib cage for expansion and the ribs have enough expansion. I wish some of the show judges today would see things in the eyes of a hunter. They have influenced the beagle to be shorter in back/loin. People want to win so they are going to breed what is going to appeal to the judges. But in turn hare hunters have breed for a longer dog because they know it has advantages.

I agree and I also have a problem with keeping my showdogs backs shorter...but we want nice ribbing and a medium loin, not short ribs and long loin or short ribs and a short loin, so it IS tough to get it perfect!! So I'll take plenty of ribs with a little longer loin over the shorter ribbed options.




If I was just starting up my breeding program today, from the way the breed has changed in the past 5+ years in the showring, I'd probably start with show lines. I don't see very many of those extra short backed hounds anymore, or the ones falling over themselves with the heaviness of bone - or those clumsy poorly assembled rears. IMHO, the show breeding has greatly improved.

Thanks alot to Leah and Julie Wright! And several others, can't list them all

Bone is very important to me, and I try not to keep the hounds with the thinnest bone, even though they tend to be faster. My 14.5-15" hounds all weigh in from 28-30lbs. I've been told thats too heavy for a Beagle, they must be oversized, but they're not. On average, mine are upper medium speed, some a notch faster and have good moderate bone and are pure muscle. My best male would probably be kicked out of the AKC showring, lol But he's very close to my ideal, my interpetation of the Standard, and there's little I'd change about him.

Your dog reminds me of my first Beagle, a very good field Beagle named Buster. Pictured below


We like good bone too, especially in a male Best,
Cindy

[wvbill]

Cindy,

Do you feel the length is a consistent problem and if so why? Curious to know your feelings on this. Would you still do it if judges perferred a touch longer back? If so, why?

In your experience with the breed where do you feel that it should be naturally? Throw all you know about hunt and show out the window. If you were the master creator what would you do....



See you all after the weekend....... time to go and get some gentlemen some bunnies. Taking the crew........ show dogs and all.
Hopefully have something to brag about.

Bill

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Cindy,

Do you feel the length is a consistent problem and if so why? Curious to know your feelings on this. Would you still do it if judges perferred a touch longer back? If so, why?

In your experience with the breed where do you feel that it should be naturally? Throw all you know about hunt and show out the window. If you were the master creator what would you do....

Bill

Hi Bill,
Writing off the cuff here without my books or notes but I know in a good dog you want a nice ribcage with a sternum of proper length to protect all of the organs and provide room for the lungs to expand nicely for stamina and wind. Then you want a broad, strong loin that is not too long or too short. Too long and it becomes a weakpoint (my own loin must be too long cuz it always is achy ). Too short and it robs the animal of flexibility and versitality in movement (but I am a good dancer LOL).
In a bitch we seem to put up with a little more length of body for packing in the whelps Lets just hope the majority of the length is ribs and back, not loin.
Because most of my puppies are sold as pets temperment is REALLY REALLY important to me. Way more important than a loin.
Best,
Cindy

[thornie]

Boy with all these angles and words, rib cages,loins and etc, you have my pea brain a hurtin. So after reading everything that every one has posted, I finally got it. Here is the true picture of the dog in my mind. And after cookin I finally Have the fisished product.

[TC]

Writing off the cuff here without my books or notes but I know in a good dog you want a nice ribcage with a sternum of proper length to protect all of the organs and provide room for the lungs to expand nicely for stamina and wind. Then you want a broad, strong loin that is not too long or too short. Too long and it becomes a weakpoint (my own loin must be too long cuz it always is achy ). Too short and it robs the animal of flexibility and versitality in movement (but I am a good dancer LOL).
In a bitch we seem to put up with a little more length of body for packing in the whelps Lets just hope the majority of the length is ribs and back, not loin.
Because most of my puppies are sold as pets temperment is REALLY REALLY important to me. Way more important than a loin.

Thank you Cindy, the words I was looking for, it is in the loin area that I see the problem too, when the dog is to long it is the loin area. I just couldn't come up with the words... I feel you are very correct in this making the dog weak and tending to have more back issues!I agree with the broad and strong loin as well for if it is to waspish I think that the dog tends to have injuries just from their activities as well.

On the females I think you are right when it comes to whelping pups, they need the space for the litter, along with the space for the muscles to do what they need to do to expel a pup. In the shorter length dogs ( not sure how to describe) do seem to have more issues with deliveries. Although any dog could have a issue with deliveries, but believe the shorter females are prone to have more difficult deliveries then the longer ones.

And I can't dance nor sing so I will leave that up to you!

[thornie]

TC, TC she said she could dance, but please don't ask her to sing.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

I am a baaaad singer, lol
To be honest I don't have enough varied experiences whelping bitches to say whether a short back makes it harder to whelp or not...I tend to doubt their length has much to do with that, or if it does that any human knows anything about it. Good Question. None of my girls have very short backs....and one girl that I owned previously with a fairly short back had 5-6 pups per litter and free whelped 2 out of 4 times...her uterus had issues but not her back. She probably had the most perfect back of all of my bitches so far and kept her topline even after 4 litters and 5 years of age. Anyway, sorry I can't help you here, maybe Leah can?

[Beaglebrit]

[quote="TC"]it is in the loin area that I see the problem too, when the dog is to long it is the loin area. I just couldn't come up with the words... I feel you are very correct in this making the dog weak and tending to have more back issues!I[quote]
You can have a dog that is long but still cobbby(short in the Loin) The loin is the area past the last rib before the hip..for lack of better discription. If that loin area is short the dog will have very sound movment with little rolling in the shoulder area. lenghten that loin and the shoulder(withers) will roll. a Dog's length in my opinion should not be considered long until the length of the loin is considered. and the longer rib cage as long as it has considerable spring will provide ample room for heart and lung function and in the case of females abiltiy to carry pups high ..and remain in good shape through out whelp.
Betsy

[Jane]

I am expecting my first litter next month. How soon do you know they have show potential? what exactly are you looking for besides good porportions, tail sets, etc ? Are tails taken back some on these dogs or are they naturally beautiful?
Cindy, how soon do you decided to sell to a pet home if one is not going to cut it in the show ring ?
Thanks

[ohlinger.s]

Thornie where did that you find that chart that you posted ?

[thornie]

Shawn, I got it at a seminar that etheir Bruce Smith or Hal Davis put on at the club. I suppose you woul like to have a copy.

[wvbill]

I'm back,

Thanks so much for your thoughts on this Cindy and Beaglebrit.

Your comments always make the gears turn in my head.


Thornie,

I am sure those are interesting to see but I do wear glasses.

Beaglebrit,

Why does the loin effect the withers so much? The loin encompass part of the spine but not all the way to the withers does it? Is it actually the length of the loin that is effecting the movement of the withers or could it be a weak loin muscle instead? Are you are saying that a shorter loin makes a dog look stiff? The more back area that a dog has the more loin area is there. Shorter backs constitute a shorter loin. Can you have a short backed dog with a long loin?

Bill

[Beaglebrit]

[quote"]The more back area that a dog has the more loin area is there. Shorter backs constitute a shorter loin. Can you have a short backed dog with a long loin?[/quote]

That is not necessarily true..Shorter back does not equal shorter loin......The back length is composed of the rib and the loin...(the loin srarts at the last rib and goes to the start of the hip) shorter rib cage and longer loin can be short backed....but the loin long. It has been my experience that a long loin is usually a weak loin. It is that weak loin that contributes to the roll at the whithers and lack of stability through out the whole top line. Just to clarify, the roll at the withers does not mean when a hound is in the check area and gets the scent and they just start wallowing and shimmying trying to scoop up that scent in their noses and their whole bodied top lines included turn to Jello!(LOL) but a roll when traveling on flat ground at a trot.
Some who favor the Generic AKC Show DOG movement TRAD(tremendous reach and drive)...prefer dogs with slightly longer loins as it helps in create the rear drive but very often faulty movement resultswith front that will not be able to match the rear drive and a flippy front that is inefficent may result.(my Show CH pictured) Remember when watching show dogs move that only 2 breeds Standards call for TRAD that is the German Sheppard and the Brittany, but the TRAD is prefered by most show judges. And look what they did to German Sheppard Structure trying to achieve and maximize that!
Betsy