Show dog VS field dog conformation

[SilverZuk]

Could someone post a picture of Uno from front to side and show us the different parts that make him conform to the breed standard?

I have been to quite a few trials and seen my share of bench shows.
I rarely see a dog built similarly to Uno. Most running beagles are built much differently.

[buckridge]

I have judged both show and field.
For the most part show dogs have:
Tail sets are higher up, straight legs, better angles, shorter backs, round bones, nice feet and better ear sets.
Some people think that show dogs can not run all day wrong, they are build to run, due to better conformation.
I have a half sister to UNO, that can run all day, she is a show champion, winning 13 shows in a row from her class.
I am taking her to my starting pen this spring.

Now, for field dogs, they have come a long ways over the past 20 yrs. I have seen some very nice field dogs, especially in the UKC format.

I have had some success breeding show and field. It takes a generations to get some thing that has good conformation and hunt, but it can be done over time.
Wishing the Best in Beagling.
Jim

[Larry G]

Let's get real here... the 8 hour large pack on hare winners bear no resemblance to Uno, or any of the show winner dogs. The show dogs are just lovely, and I like them and own quite a few, if you think I am "just woofing" ask Honey Pot where she got her hot shot stud, but no they can't compete in endurance with the real thing.... if they could, they would.... put yours in and prove me wrong.

Arabian horse breeders spouted the same nonsense for years, my little beauties could outrun any thoroughbred on earth if I would just let them, yeah sure dude.

[blunder]

Larry one thing that needs to be considered in this never ending "discussion" is that we all understand that form follows function, but none of us want to discuss the changes in function in what we do with our dogs.
So a simple little question, in what way did that "pack hunt" resemble a pack hunt of 100 years ago?

I go through this with Retrievers as well as Hounds, and the facts are that our field trials have changed so much over the years that it is no longer just the show dogs that do not resemble their ancestors.

To be blunt, my Master Hunter more closely resembles a grayhound in structure than she does her actual breed. The reason for that is all to simple, her function in the modern field trial world resembles that of a sight hound more than it does the function of retrievers from 50 years ago.

[Beagled1]

Let's get real here... the 8 hour large pack on hare winners bear no resemblance to Uno, or any of the show winner dogs. The show dogs are just lovely, and I like them and own quite a few, if you think I am "just woofing" ask Honey Pot where she got her hot shot stud, but no they can't compete in endurance with the real thing.... if they could, they would.... put yours in and prove me wrong.

Arabian horse breeders spouted the same nonsense for years, my little beauties could outrun any thoroughbred on earth if I would just let them, yeah sure dude.

Well, if we want to get technical, the breed was originally not bred for the hunting style favored in LPO. They were originally a slow, methodical hound, closer to the style of the true medium speed gundog. The faster footed hound has been selectively bred for that speed and this is a relatively modern occurrence in the breed's history. I've noticed that most show bred hounds are of a medium speed when hunted - and that would make sense because the show hounds originated from the original style of hunting hound. So, to compare the foot speed of a LPO field champion and a show bred hound is apples & oranges. It wasn't the original purpose of the breed to be swift footed, and the show dogs, never having been crossed with the LPO type bloodlines, would essentially be a "throwback" to the older style.
I wouldn't expect an Arabian horse to outrun a thoroughbred who was specifically bred for the lighter bone (oft seen in the LPO bloodlines along with longer legs) and that doesn't mean an Arabian isn't a fast horse. Just the way it doesn't mean that because a show dog that hunts cannot keep up with a pack of LPO dogs that it has no hunt or is inferior to the faster hounds. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ENDURANCE ISSUES! If the hound broke down after a short run it's one thing, but if it consistantly cannot keep up because that type of speed is not in it's genes ...
Besides that, I have a show bred bitch with as much hunt as my primarily Branko bred hounds - she may be slower but she gets the job done the right way with line control you'd never expect to see in a show CH. If I hadn't known better, I might think she was field bred. Everything about her conformation allows her to move correctly and effortlessly - I don't know about LPO, but she might go somewhere in SPO with more experience under her belt. Doesn't matter one way or the other becuase she is a clean and efficient gundog, and that's really all that matters. IMHO, your theory does nothing to discredit the running ability or desire of show breeding. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[Larry G]

Larry one thing that needs to be considered in this never ending "discussion" is that we all understand that form follows function, but none of us want to discuss the changes in function in what we do with our dogs.
So a simple little question, in what way did that "pack hunt" resemble a pack hunt of 100 years ago?

I go through this with Retrievers as well as Hounds, and the facts are that our field trials have changed so much over the years that it is no longer just the show dogs that do not resemble their ancestors.

To be blunt, my Master Hunter more closely resembles a grayhound in structure than she does her actual breed. The reason for that is all to simple, her function in the modern field trial world resembles that of a sight hound more than it does the function of retrievers from 50 years ago.

Tom I don't know about the 100 years ago pack hunt. I do know that Miss America, while she may have what is called proper conformation, probably won't win many triathlons. Bodybuilders may win male beauty contests but can't cut it in pro basketball. What people call "conformation" (and most spell it wrong too as well as misunderstanding its meaning) is nothing more than how well a specimen "conforms" to an arbitrary standard agreed upon by TPTB. In the show ring a dog that has eye appeal and a spectacular flying trot does well. To try to say that translates into superior performance in the field simply cannot be substantiated. It doesn't, which is why dual champions are so rare, about like hen's teeth.

I like pretty in my hounds, have bred in the show blood and got some bench wins and field places on the same hound. The field success had nothing to do with "superior conformation" it was because her dam would run a rabbit until she fell over and you won't get that from just the current crop of show beagles.

There are two groups of animal fanciers, the admirers of beauty, and the admirers of performance. Show pigeons do not outfly racing homers, Saddlebreds do not win the derby, and AKC show beagles do not win field trials. There will always be that small band insisting that they could because they are physically superior. And, those dumb enough to believe it.

[Bev]

Okay, I will add my own theory here (this is an awesome thread btw, with some very good points made). I don't think most breeders go out of their way to harm the breed. I think they simply try to enhance those natural beagle qualities they love best, and will allow them to win in their respective genres.

I agree with Larry G about the 2 groups of fanciers, and I see nothing wrong with there being 2 groups of fanciers. This is true in many things - not just dogs or animals. Some people buy a truck to haul dogs, pull boats,








...and even this:




On the other hand, you have people who enjoy truck ownership like this (notice the stack of trophies):



They are both still trucks...loved and adored by their owners. Same way with houses. Some have small houses like mine - clutter about, if you yank up my couch cushions you might find a few kernels of popcorn, some loose change, a good ink pen, an odd sock where I fell asleep there one night watching the late news...LOL. Unless the mud is up to your knees, you don't take your shoes off before coming into my house, and if you wear black, expect to see dog hair on you when you leave.

Then you have million-dollar showcase homes decorated by interior design studios from Chicago...pillars, columns, 12-foot palm trees. The residents enjoy entertaining in a high style, and love the beauty of spectacular design. It's their thing. They are both still homes - loved and adored by their owners. We do what makes us happy with our homes, trucks, and dogs.

That being said, back to my theory that if we are of competitive spirit, we work toward what will make us successful in the arena we choose. All arenas have different standards - even within themselves. I'd wager to say a 13" FC from the UBGF will not and cannot hang with one of my 13-month-old fox beagles for 7 hours on rocky terrain covered with snow. My fox beagles would last approximately 120 seconds in a UBGF trial before I'd be taking him to the truck, lol. Here's a pic of a couple of my beagles (at age 9 months) who are now 18-months old and being campaigned on fox in large packs:



Are they show quality? Heavens, no, but I didn't breed them for that. They have houndy heads, a nice strong build, good bone mass, and a balanced structure to do what they need to to win in their particular form of competition...and to me they still look like beagles, (not whippets). Did I take great pains to breed out any conformation that might be considered "showy?" No, I was more focused on other things, but some fairly nice "beagley" traits hung in there.

Conversely, do the show beagle fanciers go out of their ways to breed the hunt out? I don't believe so. They may not foster it or breed FOR it, but they are more focused on what's going to allow them to win under their judge. My guess is the hunt still lingers in many a show dog, more than the ones we already know about. At one point, we all started with the same dogs.

I never expect my dogs will ever win an AKC show, but people watching them will know they are beagles. Will Uno, Parker, Marksman, etc. ever win a field trial? Very doubtful, but in my heart of hearts, I know that if you led them into the woods and undid the leash, the instinct to chase an animal with it's nose would get the better of them. It's hard to breed the soul out of a beagle - no matter where you campaign them.

GO BEAGLES...the best all-around breed in the world!



Good thread! Lots of good input from everyone!

[Larry G]

Let's get real here... the 8 hour large pack on hare winners bear no resemblance to Uno, or any of the show winner dogs. The show dogs are just lovely, and I like them and own quite a few, if you think I am "just woofing" ask Honey Pot where she got her hot shot stud, but no they can't compete in endurance with the real thing.... if they could, they would.... put yours in and prove me wrong.

Arabian horse breeders spouted the same nonsense for years, my little beauties could outrun any thoroughbred on earth if I would just let them, yeah sure dude.

Well, if we want to get technical, the breed was originally not bred for the hunting style favored in LPO. They were originally a slow, methodical hound, closer to the style of the true medium speed gundog. The faster footed hound has been selectively bred for that speed and this is a relatively modern occurrence in the breed's history. I've noticed that most show bred hounds are of a medium speed when hunted - and that would make sense because the show hounds originated from the original style of hunting hound. So, to compare the foot speed of a LPO field champion and a show bred hound is apples & oranges. It wasn't the original purpose of the breed to be swift footed, and the show dogs, never having been crossed with the LPO type bloodlines, would essentially be a "throwback" to the older style.
I wouldn't expect an Arabian horse to outrun a thoroughbred who was specifically bred for the lighter bone (oft seen in the LPO bloodlines along with longer legs) and that doesn't mean an Arabian isn't a fast horse. Just the way it doesn't mean that because a show dog that hunts cannot keep up with a pack of LPO dogs that it has no hunt or is inferior to the faster hounds. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ENDURANCE ISSUES! If the hound broke down after a short run it's one thing, but if it consistantly cannot keep up because that type of speed is not in it's genes ...
Besides that, I have a show bred bitch with as much hunt as my primarily Branko bred hounds - she may be slower but she gets the job done the right way with line control you'd never expect to see in a show CH. If I hadn't known better, I might think she was field bred. Everything about her conformation allows her to move correctly and effortlessly - I don't know about LPO, but she might go somewhere in SPO with more experience under her belt. Doesn't matter one way or the other becuase she is a clean and efficient gundog, and that's really all that matters. IMHO, your theory does nothing to discredit the running ability or desire of show breeding. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Call Frieda and Branko and tell them your show bred bitch can out hunt and out run their breeding. They could probably use a good laugh.

[blunder]

Larry actually there are three groups of fanciers, there really are quite a few of us that have a desire for both. Unfortunately most of us also know that we can't really get there with the same dog, and that is a shame. Those of us that do play in both sports also recognize that there is no one group that bares all the blame. It is only natural that we all try to develop a dog that can do "it" just a little better, but then we have to add a little more difficulty in order to get enough separation to declare a winner. Doesn't make a bit of difference if that difficulty is in the show ring or the trial grounds, it still alters function which can only influence form.

[Larry G]

I'm kinda in that tiny 3rd group myself.... swimming upstream. Why? Well why do what everybody else is doing? I can go to a UBGF trial and beat 'em on the bench, not quite in the field. I can go to an AKC show and get my doors blown off. I'm sure I can't run with Bev's fox hounds.

It's all about having fun with the dogs, whether that means a trottin' show or run a fox all day or a Jack Russell terrier race. Just don't go saying my show dogs COULD beat hell outta your field dogs because they are physically more correct unless you are ready to back it up with action...that gets old pretty quick.

[Beaglebrit]

The Breed, Beagles, has a definite split, as does Labs, German Shepards and numerous other breeds. The show fancy will breed what it takes to win, and follow any fad or style to achieve those wins....hock walking Shepards, Labs so Fat that they would sink any Jon Boat, etc. The trialer will breed what it takes to win....Deep south SPO dogs are now fast and erratic on line and as rough as a cobb....ARHA dogs and UKC....pursue accomplishment with little regard to line control....Brace dogs are all about how slow can you go and their conformation reflects that.So my point is as Humans, we are competitive..we want to win and often that desire to win superceeds the desire to improve the breed. We take a judgess opinion and breed to that opinion.
I am often reminded of a childs story....The Emperor's New Clothes....The Emperor orders a custom made suit for a parade...months of fabric slection,fitting and tailoring go on ...Everyone assures the Emperor that the suit is beautiful and it looks stunning on him (he is really naked at the fittings)..the emperor believes the alocades of those around him....the day of the parade arrives, a little boy sees the Emperor(who was assured that his clothes were beautiful and worthy of award).. and the Little Boy calls out to the Crowd that the Emperor is naked!!!!
Are we like that some times in our breeding programs...We are assured by judges and peers that our dogs are the most beautiful , most talented..the best thing since sliced Bread...but are we just like the Emperor and believe those around us and choose Fads and the Flavor of the Month rather than the standard ? or do we try to breed to the standard in both field and show even though we may not win ?
Just something to think about
Betsy
(trying hard to breed something for AKC Show and AKC SPO Field!)

[tiffinis]

As for the Thoroughbred and Arabian comparison. Arabs are bred to go all day, have been for thousands of years. Put a Thoroughbred in one of the endurance races of the Arabs he will get the head start, but will never make the finish line.

I too belong to the 3rd group. I would love to see the 2 lines come together. I would love to take one of my Patch hounds to an AKC ring and take home a few ribbons. But I know in my head that Patch are built for the all day hunt. I think I could take some ribbons home with Lacie, but I also know, she could never compete with the Unos of the world. Maybe if I bred her to a Parker (Moore's or Leah's), I would get the head that will get me a little further. But I would never want to do it at the cost of losing her hunt, cause that is her first passion and I know that comes from 110 years of dedicated Patch breeding.

Do I live in a fantasy world, probably. But dreams are free and tax exempt!!

[S.R.Patch]

...

[Beagled1]

Call Frieda and Branko and tell them your show bred bitch can out hunt and out run their breeding. They could probably use a good laugh.

*** Deleted my own response, since it was edited ... I'm A-ok with the powers that be editing posts if one gets out of line, but before this gets deleted or edited again, can I ask a question? If we post truthful information regarding the health of certain well known bloodlines, is it really in the best interest of the breed to censor that?

[blunder]

Patch said
"But isn't ENDURANCE what all this conformation fuss is about? Balance, symmetry and freedom of movement for long endurance?, whats required to pursue and out last the game animal?

Absolutely, however, we all recognize that first an athlete must be born with the talent, but without the necessary development and physical conditioning that talent amounts to nothing. 50 years ago it was not all that uncommon for a dog to be raised as a hunting or field trial dog while at the same time a litter mate was being groomed for the show ring. Now a days we only see that being done with two breeds, Britts & Chessies. There is only one DC Golden Retriever in the world (push) and there are no living DC Labs. To my knowledge there isn't a single DC hound of any breed. Point being that I have seen several show hounds that would have had the necessary endurance if they had received the proper development and conditioning.
I see Labradors all the time that couldn't in their wildest dream out run a wounded duck. If you put some of them on a diet long enough to take the waddle out of their walk they would surprise the heck out of you. Did you know that the long time winningest show lab in history (Briggs) and the top producing field Lab (Honcho) had the same grandsire? To bad those days are long gone isn't it?

Did you know that there have been 524 Brittnay Dual Champions?
http://www.brittanybreed.info/DualChampions/
Brittany DC #12 & 47 were named Uno