New Show Puppy Litter

[Beagled1]

Not trying to pry, but if you linebreed and inbreed I know you get defective pups, what do you do with them if their not culled? I heard animal shelters are overflowing these days with the poor economy. I dont like placing beagles in homes where they will be on automatic feeders eating cheap dog good, getting fat and never getting trips to the field to do what they were bred for and love.

Well, I can say with a clear conscience that none of my culls have ever been dumped in a shelter and to my knowledge, none of my pet pups have either. I've bred a few litters and no genetic health issues to date, and no birth defects. I've produced one that had a very flaky temperament (and that was a 7 generation outcross - we bred a Thorn Gap bitch to a faster speed Branko/Ace In the Hole bred male in hopes of improving line control) and she is here with me to this day. She's a flake, but is healthy as a horse and is fine with us. So she has a home here. I can assure you the same would happen if I bred a pup with a genetic defect that was not life threatening - of it were a serious problem that affected quality of life, I would only have one option - to have the Vet put the dog down.

I have inbred two litters, mother to son, and the worst problem we got was a pup with a boil in her ear. Took care of that w/ hydrocortisone creme. I inbreed with discretion, not all lines should be inbred and I prefer to do mostly outcrosses but sometimes inbreeding is necessary. I think most of us here, ESPECIALLY the show breeders take responsibility for our culls! Inbreeding/linebreeding will not inherently give you problems if you know what you're breeding. That means asking lots of questions with other breeders and studying pedigrees until your eyes are numb
You might also want to read Control of Canine Genetic Disease by George Padgett DVM.
Will give you a better understanding of genetics and inbreeding ...

Anyway, I sell all my pet pups on a contract with a takeback clause to do my best to take responsibility & keep them out of the shelter. I screen pet people as best I can to ensure pups are going to a good home that won't just put them on an automatic feeder and tie them out in the backyard 24/7. Again, to date, I have inbred/linebred and not produced a serious genetic health fault, just a skittish pup who is staying here. I am with TC 100% in that I would rather see one of "my" pups in a good home with kids then to have just one in a poor or neglectful hunting home that sees the hound as a means to an end. I have heard stories of how hounds are broke off deer by some guys that would make your hair curl. So I am very cautious of which hunting homes to place pups in, I want them to be pets and rabbit dogs. If not both, then they become just pets - that's fine by them & me

[mybeagles]

TC,

I can provide you with countless Scientific articles on the risks associated with inbreeding and close linebreeding but I sense you have long since made up your mind on the subject. 4 years of study in Biology and Genetics certainly does not make me an expert but I dont have my head in the sand either. Close breeding greatly increase the likelyhood of recessive faults like bowed leggs, cherry eyes, gray hair, no hunt, ghost trailing, backtracking, overbite/underbite etc....

In my opinion, field trialers that completely ignore conformation should not be breeding, likewise, show kennels that completely ignore field qualities should not be breeding. By several of your own posts, there is a big problem with beagles being divided into two categories: Show and Field. I dont breed a litter unless I plan to keep all of them for 6-8 months and cull the defective ones. The reason I have to do this is because so many backyard breeders have inbred, linebred and outcrossed defective traits into the beagles that are now showing up in high percentages. Therefore I find it unacceptable to sell pups that have such a high potential for being faulty either in Show OR Field.

If someone wants a family pet there are shelters overflowing all over the country in every community. I view neutering a bunch of defective beagles and placing them as pets as irresponsible. What kind of light does it put beagles in, or your kennels in when the following happens: "Where did you get that crooked legged dog?" Oh, I got it from TC's kennel. This problem wont be solved overnight but I will try to do my part.

Moore Beagles,

I realize that many of the dogs available today are inbred or linebred. I attribute many of the problems we have today to this method. There might be a place for it, but in questioning many breeders, few can explain even the BASIC science behind their methods and without that its very irresponsible. I try to find hounds that are outcrossed as much as possible, especially inside the 3 generations. I might not get the consitancy linebreeders "claim" to get, but at least if their is a fault I dont have to breed for 3 generations to get rid of it.

I can see I stepped on a "sacred cow" in the show world, so as gently as I stepped into this world I will step back out. I can assure you I mean no harm to anyone here and my ignorance of your aversion to culling is a lesson learned. There are battles in life that are best avoided and this is one of them.

Good day!

[Larry G]

The deformed culls sometimes make it to beaglesforsaleonline, and if any of you show freaks challenge me on that I will pull up the thread unless some of the butt kissers get Bev to delete it.

The stud Cindy is so proud of was mine, she's a nice lady and I'm glad the dog has a good home. I tried hard to find one for him and she provided it.

If you are going to come on a board like this and ask questions, you may as well be asking George Bush if he did anything wrong his second term. Wake up man.

[Beagled1]

I can provide you with countless Scientific articles on the risks associated with inbreeding and close linebreeding but I sense you have long since made up your mind on the subject. 4 years of study in Biology and Genetics certainly does not make me an expert but I dont have my head in the sand either. Close breeding greatly increase the likelyhood of recessive faults like bowed leggs, cherry eyes, gray hair, no hunt, ghost trailing, backtracking, overbite/underbite etc....

I think you're mistaking inbreeding one litter with an inbreeding depression. You are also attributing genetic canine diseases and faults TO inbreeding, when this is not the case. All the faults you're describing are the consequence of breeding hounds that had faults in the genes already - one male I had a while back had a bad bite and absolutely no hunt, I also learned later on he had a slipped stifle AND early onset kidney problems. He was field bred with no common ancestors in 4+ generations.
If those defects are not in the line, they simply do not appear in an inbred pup - which is why a breeder needs to learn of everything in the line before making a breeding decision. I'd rather have a pup from a well planned out inbreeding than a willy nilly outcross. To date, I have produced a total of 13 inbred pups out of two mother/son crosses, the inbreeding coefficient for those litters is somewhere around 25%, and not one single report of any genetic health or temperament or structural defects. Becuase that bloodline was prepotent for producing healthy pups and the few recessives we do have in that line are as minor as a breeder could ever hope for. The bitch pup we kept back from that litter was not show bred, nor do I claim she is anything resembling show quality, but she has correct structure and is exceptionally healthy.
These are a few of my inbred pups, you can see how faulty they are:


This bitch pup wasn't the best conformation wise in her litter but nailed it with everything else we were looking for hunt wise. Line control is spot on, full of desire, and @ 9 mos is already a useful member of the pack. She is one of my better check dogs, too.

In my opinion, field trialers that completely ignore conformation should not be breeding, likewise, show kennels that completely ignore field qualities should not be breeding. By several of your own posts, there is a big problem with beagles being divided into two categories: Show and Field. I dont breed a litter unless I plan to keep all of them for 6-8 months and cull the defective ones. The reason I have to do this is because so many backyard breeders have inbred, linebred and outcrossed defective traits into the beagles that are now showing up in high percentages. Therefore I find it unacceptable to sell pups that have such a high potential for being faulty either in Show OR Field.

Can I ask you what BYB bloodlines would be doing in the kennels of a reputable breeder? Those defective traits you claim are from BYBs in our breed would not have anything to do with the bloodlines used by anyone worth their salt in the breed. What an amateur breeds does not end up making an impact on the breed because no one uses their lines, except maybe for other BYBs. What a good breeder works with are other reputable breeders and their well bred lines. Inbreeding does not cause faults, just like outcrissing will not assure you a healthy litter. Why don't you focus on reseraching the bloodlines and learning which hounds have a high potential to be carriers for which problems?

Everyone has the right to breed for what they want, be that show, field or both. I personally will not breed anything that cannot hunt, that will always be the priority here. It's not for me to tell another breeder they should not be breeding because their focus is different than mine or yours. Culling is also a personal matter and if I have one that does not make the grade, they are neutered and sold as a pet. I see no problem with selling pet pups - hunters and show breeder are not the only ones who have the right to own well bred pet Beagles.

If someone wants a family pet there are shelters overflowing all over the country in every community. I view neutering a bunch of defective beagles and placing them as pets as irresponsible. What kind of light does it put beagles in, or your kennels in when the following happens: "Where did you get that crooked legged dog?" Oh, I got it from TC's kennel. This problem wont be solved overnight but I will try to do my part.

Some people don't want a shelter dog, who are you to tell them to go to the pound instead of a breeder? And you're turning around and calling the breeders here irresponsible when they've been nothing but ethical, simply because they cull differently than you would? Wow. That's some nerve to talk about breeders here who have been working to improve this breed and have really made some great strides.
I also don't know where you're getting that TC produces crooked legged pups? Because he mentioned he had produced a couple in the past? Come on, so he should put a bullet in their heads because of something so stupid and minor? So those dogs don't get bred. Big whoop.
This is the pup I got from TC ... crooked legs? ROFL. Yeah, ok. She's one of my better conformation dogs. She's also a 3-4 generation outcross, so much for your inbreeding theory.

Ican see I stepped on a "sacred cow" in the show world, so as gently as I stepped into this world I will step back out. I can assure you I mean no harm to anyone here and my ignorance of your aversion to culling is a lesson learned. There are battles in life that are best avoided and this is one of them.

I'm sorry you think that Everyone was willing to help you - no our dogs are not perfect, but then again, no breeder has the perfect dogs. You've stepped on the toes of some good, well respected breeders instead of seeking advice from those that may know more than you about breeding. This has nothing to do with inbreeding, but rather your assumptions & attitude.