UKC Hunting Beagle "Rule" Situation

[MES Kennels]

I have a question about a situation that happened recently at a UKC Hunting Beagle trial. Let me start by saying that I don't think there is a rule that hits on what happened, but I would like some opinions. Also, I AM NOT bashing the rules or the trial format, just a question on what to do or what could be done. Also, by asking the question, I am not insinuating that my dog is perfect. Just a rules question.

Now that's out of the way: If you look at the image below it may help to understand what happened. It was the first time we released the hounds when they hit on a rabbit that ran from the brush, into the open field along a fence row. The rabbit continued up the fence row where it took a hard left (north) across the field. The dogs continued up the fence row. When they hit the spot where the rabbit cut out into the field they officially hit a check according to UKC rules. The rabbit continued across the field where it hit the creek (about 5 feet wide). The rabbit took another hard left and continued along the creek, more about that later. The dogs came out of the check and ran across the field. When the rabbit took the hard left, two of the dogs, slammed into the muddy creek and continued right across to the other side. My dog stayed on our side of the creek and searched for the rabbit. I admit my dog lost the rabbit plain and simple; but what happened next is where it got interesting. The time passed and it was an official "loss" so we were supposed to catch the dogs. We all called the dogs but the other two dogs stayed on the other side of the creek running up and down the bank. My dog came after a bit of coaxing. We all walked down to where the creek branched out and could not cross. The dogs would not come back across when called. Additionally we jumped the rabbit again where my dog went NUTS, but I could not release him because we needed to catch the other dogs. I walked up the creek with the other guys and we tried to catch the other dogs. It took 30 minutes to catch the other dogs. By this time, my dog was thoroughly confused because I had caught him, mid hunt, jumped a rabbit RIGHT in front of him and didn't let him run it, and then sit and wait 30 minutes.

When we finally got the dogs back together and re-released them. My dog just did not seem the same after the whole ordeal and went onto get third in the cast. He split off of the other two dogs, but I couldn't ever get a line on him to score separately.

I was out numbered in my cast and expressed that I was not happy with what had happened. I honestly didn't think of any rules that would help but I wanted to see what you all good folks thought. Thanks for reading the whole way and for any responses.

[BCBeagles]

The reason I enjoy pleasure running more than trialing.... Great picture though!!

[BradWV]

What were you out numbered on? What exactly is your question?

[MES Kennels]

I was out numbered in the sense that I didn't want to raise hell about the delay and how their dogs were unresponsive to calling. The other guys didn't really think anything of what had happened, although one of them did say: "you can't fault your dog for what happened." This statement led me to believe I had received the short end if the stick.

My question(s) is this: Am I missing a rule that can help in that situation? and What would you all have done in that circumstance?

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

The reason I enjoy pleasure running more than trialing.... Great picture though!!

Hell man i aint smart enuff to figure out what the hell i am looking at.

[mtn state]

The reason I enjoy pleasure running more than trialing.... Great picture though!!

Hell man i aint smart enuff to figure out what the hell i am looking at.

u got map upside down jimbo. just funin man.

[MES Kennels]

The reason I enjoy pleasure running more than trialing.... Great picture though!!

Hell man i aint smart enuff to figure out what the hell i am looking at.

Haha I know it's not the easiest thing to follow. I tried to make it as easy as possible...still complicated. The "dots" in the middle are where we started, and where the dogs and rabbit started.

[johns03272008]

Welcome to UKC HB!!!

[bmgreen91]

That is a problem I have found in this trialing. You have some dogs to where you call their name and they come running and you put them on the leash. Then you have these dogs that will be 2 feet from you and you call them and they walk away. So in the mean time your dog is getting cold and not staying warm because these other dogs don't know how to handle, and they stay warm, so because your dog handles good you get the shaft in the long run. In my opinion there should be a time limit set and if your dog isn't handled in that time then you should start getting loss point. I'm not sure if this is where you where getting at but this is what I took from your rant.

[Steve Shipman]

In answering your question, when the judge declared a dead track and to handle dogs, handlers have 5 mins. to retreive their hounds. If handlers and all hounds are not back together after 5 mins. the judge is to call time out. Handlers are given additional 25mins to rejoin the cast with their hounds or they are scratched. That's a total of 30mins. According to your senerio, all dogs were running the rabbit and lost it. No line was scored so they didn't secure their strike points, draw a line through their strike points and minus them all 50-. That's the rule. Tough break for your hound, been there and done that more than once !!!!!!!

[mike carder]

Well you guys must have called time out to catch the dogs. If it took more than 30 minutes like you said, they should have been scratched. The dogs could cross the creek I know I could have.
UKC rule 6-h

As far as your hound not performing the same. Can't explain that. I know when I leash my hounds up no matter how long they still pack and hunt the same. Just go back read the rules and have fun. It's just a hunt.

Steve where in the HB rules does it say that you have 5 minutes to handle the dogs then the judge calls time out?

[warddog]

In answering your question, when the judge declared a dead track and to handle dogs, handlers have 5 mins. to retreive their hounds. If handlers and all hounds are not back together after 5 mins. the judge is to call time out. Handlers are given additional 25mins to rejoin the cast with their hounds or they are scratched. That's a total of 30mins. According to your senerio, all dogs were running the rabbit and lost it. No line was scored so they didn't secure their strike points, draw a line through their strike points and minus them all 50-. That's the rule. Tough break for your hound, been there and done that more than once !!!!!!!

I know in a UKC coon hound trial when the dogs get seperated and one is on a lead while the others are not running/treeing then time out is called and handlers told to handle their dogs. They have 30 minutes to have their dogs under control and if one should dtrike and or tree while time is out, too bad, it is not score

I would assume UKC beagle trials to be pretty similiar to UKC coon hound rules and from Mr. Shipman's post it appears they are.

[MES Kennels]

In answering your question, when the judge declared a dead track and to handle dogs, handlers have 5 mins. to retreive their hounds. If handlers and all hounds are not back together after 5 mins. the judge is to call time out. Handlers are given additional 25mins to rejoin the cast with their hounds or they are scratched. That's a total of 30mins. According to your senerio, all dogs were running the rabbit and lost it. No line was scored so they didn't secure their strike points, draw a line through their strike points and minus them all 50-. That's the rule. Tough break for your hound, been there and done that more than once !!!!!!!

Steve, thank you very much for explaining this to me very clearly. The 25 minute time out is something I was not aware of. I read through the rules, but clearly missed that part.

How often do people actually scratch the dog for this reason? I don't want to be the a$$ hole who calls someone on it when no one else cares.

Thank you all for the responses!

[Sundown Beagles]

You have 30 minutes once a time out is called. Time out must be called prior to having 30 minutes to handle. In your situation once you noticed a handler nor dog would not cross a crossable creek, you should call timeout and start the 30 minutes. You will be surprised how fast dogs are handled. As for the effects of your hound during this time? Nothing you can do about it.

[Eva's Beagles]

You had better check your rule book on calling time outs. Unable to handle dogs is not one of the reasons.

In the above scenario, I would have voted on splitting on the jumped rabbit,( unless it was the original rabbit, you just took minus on), turned the one dog loose on it, that should have called the other dogs over, if not, oh well, score the one dog. Don't punish the dog that handles. If the vote goes the other way, walk away, recast dog and open strikes.

No reason for a time out, unless the other side of the creek is different land that you don't have permission to hunt on.

I see this rule being twisted a lot. It says scratched for delaying the cast for 30 minutes after time out is called in accordance with rule #7. If you have no legitimate reason for calling time out in accordance with rule #7 then you don't call time out period.