David, glad to see you over here. I know you know enough about competition coonhunting to know that in theory, a good coonhound should be a good competition coonhound as well. But, truely doubt if you would hunt a dog like the one that won the PKC World Championship last year. He came from close to my home, I know about him. With that being said, it can be the same with beagles. Craig will lead you to believe that beagles in a certain format don't get plus points for running track 100 yards and quitting but they do. I have seen it time after time. In fact, I can't remember ever going to a hunt in that format that it didn't happen. I personally would not want to hunt a rabbit dog that didn't consistantly circle rabbits and I hunt competition events that only plus beagles after they circle the rabbit and the rabbit is seen. It is kind of like the Nite Hunts, do you think they would change if plus points were given whether the coon was seen or not and they judged coon dogs on track style instead of being able to get the track to the right tree? It is fundamental to me. Of course, I look at beagles from a coonhunter's view point. I saw "show me the meat" before you say you have a better coondog or beagle. It is just that fundamental.
I hope you will post on the beagle message board on the PKC board. No personal attacks are allowed on that board. I have brought up some issues on this board knowing I was going to take a lot of bashing from some folks who can not make a legitiment comment on some issues, so they launch personal attacks. I have thick skin but I am so glad that it is not allowed on the PKC board or on most of the many other boards I post on.
UKC 's New format ?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Redtick said" But truly doubt you would hunt a dog like the one that won the PKC World Championship last year"
Redtick:
It sounds like you dont think much of this dog.So here again is a registry whose titles obviously dont mean much to you.But wait this is PKC.I thought PKC only promotes a true hunting hound you know "show me the meat" and all that.I guess that theory is blown out of the water now.Or is it only your dog's titles that mean anything?
You asked me to start another thread so you could help us get our facts right.So far you have not responded. I am waiting for you to tell me what facts I have posted that are wrong about you or your hounds.Also you said previously that your beagle breeding was based on a strain that you and a buddy have had since 1970 .Now you claim that he has the last two dogs.you have also stated that they were fast run to catch type hounds.my questions are#1. If you are such an accomplished breeder how could you let yourself get down to only two dogs and have to start all over again ?As a breeding program this sounds like a miserable failure.#2 Why did you not compete or register these hounds in UKC?#3 surely in 30 years you had some pups and didnt keep every pup out of every litter.Who else has some of these dogs?#4 If you are such an accomplished coondog breeder why is there not enough demand for your pups from competition coonhunters for you to meet the expenses of having your Studdog in the Superstakes program?
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel
Redtick:
It sounds like you dont think much of this dog.So here again is a registry whose titles obviously dont mean much to you.But wait this is PKC.I thought PKC only promotes a true hunting hound you know "show me the meat" and all that.I guess that theory is blown out of the water now.Or is it only your dog's titles that mean anything?
You asked me to start another thread so you could help us get our facts right.So far you have not responded. I am waiting for you to tell me what facts I have posted that are wrong about you or your hounds.Also you said previously that your beagle breeding was based on a strain that you and a buddy have had since 1970 .Now you claim that he has the last two dogs.you have also stated that they were fast run to catch type hounds.my questions are#1. If you are such an accomplished breeder how could you let yourself get down to only two dogs and have to start all over again ?As a breeding program this sounds like a miserable failure.#2 Why did you not compete or register these hounds in UKC?#3 surely in 30 years you had some pups and didnt keep every pup out of every litter.Who else has some of these dogs?#4 If you are such an accomplished coondog breeder why is there not enough demand for your pups from competition coonhunters for you to meet the expenses of having your Studdog in the Superstakes program?
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel
Let me see if i understand this correct. All dogs that bark before rabbit is produced will be struck in and once rabbit is produced no other dogs can be struck in. Every beagle i own will not bark until the rabbit is produced so does that mean you need dogs that barks on a cold trail or barks before the jump to run this format? This is the way i'm understanding this.
Some of the coonhunting posters on this board will be familiar with terms like babbling and ghost tracking. I predict more beaglers in the future will be aware of what these terms are and what they mean.
JMurphy, I am not saying anything except stating that I don't think David hunts dogs like the dog I mentioned. I could be wrong on my assumption but I have read a lot of his posts on other boards. Heck, I don't hunt World Champions.
JMurphy, I am not saying anything except stating that I don't think David hunts dogs like the dog I mentioned. I could be wrong on my assumption but I have read a lot of his posts on other boards. Heck, I don't hunt World Champions.
Redtick:
It is truly sad that you dont even believe in the power of your own convictions.It is obvious by your statement that you dont think much of the dog.You should just be man enough to say that.You are always trumpeting PKC as promoting a great "show me the meat"type hound.How did this one slip thru the cracks to win a world championship?If it is true of this one then couldnt it be true of others.You did say one thing on another thread that I agreed with(that almost gave me a heart attack)that no field trial format in of itself is complete test of a hunting hound.I asked you several other questions that i am still waiting on answers for.
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel
It is truly sad that you dont even believe in the power of your own convictions.It is obvious by your statement that you dont think much of the dog.You should just be man enough to say that.You are always trumpeting PKC as promoting a great "show me the meat"type hound.How did this one slip thru the cracks to win a world championship?If it is true of this one then couldnt it be true of others.You did say one thing on another thread that I agreed with(that almost gave me a heart attack)that no field trial format in of itself is complete test of a hunting hound.I asked you several other questions that i am still waiting on answers for.
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel
Redtick,
Here is a simple, easy question.
You say you have just got into seriously breeding beagles and trialing beagles in the past 5 years, name a dog or 2 that you have bred yourself that has done anything in any format.
Just reposted I was affraid you over looked my question.
Here is a simple, easy question.
You say you have just got into seriously breeding beagles and trialing beagles in the past 5 years, name a dog or 2 that you have bred yourself that has done anything in any format.
Just reposted I was affraid you over looked my question.
Trent
No one plans to Fail, they fail to Plan
No one plans to Fail, they fail to Plan
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dogrunnerone
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:10 pm
- Location: Indiana
[/quote]Craig will lead you to believe that beagles in a certain format don't get plus points for running track 100 yards and quitting but they do. I have seen it time after time. In fact, I can't remember ever going to a hunt in that format that it didn't happen.
Dave,
This sounds more like a judge's problem then a dog problem I won't disagree that there are judge's that could use a lesson in houndsmenship but you make it sound like it is the norm instead of not. I, unlike you, have traveled all over this country to ARHA Little Pack hunts and I can attest that this is not the norm. I have seen the best dogs ever to run a rabbit at ARHA LP trials. Granted I have only been to a hand full of UKC trials and a boat load of LP trials, so I do base my opinion off of what I have knowledge of. But I have seen some unknowledgeable men carry the scorecard at UKC events and still be able to make a call and have it stick even with a voting cast. I have been to enough to see that the one that carries the scorecard has the upper hand in most cases. I also have seen where the new guys, like myself have a disadvantage, not that I haven't read the rule book and tried to figure out what it means, but until a handler has been put in all the situations, he will not react in time to make a difference on the card. He might think about it on the ride home or later while discussing the rules with someone that does know. How about the "place of refuse" rule, I would say it is alot like what you are describing above. Someone not getting the minus they deserve.
Dave,
This sounds more like a judge's problem then a dog problem I won't disagree that there are judge's that could use a lesson in houndsmenship but you make it sound like it is the norm instead of not. I, unlike you, have traveled all over this country to ARHA Little Pack hunts and I can attest that this is not the norm. I have seen the best dogs ever to run a rabbit at ARHA LP trials. Granted I have only been to a hand full of UKC trials and a boat load of LP trials, so I do base my opinion off of what I have knowledge of. But I have seen some unknowledgeable men carry the scorecard at UKC events and still be able to make a call and have it stick even with a voting cast. I have been to enough to see that the one that carries the scorecard has the upper hand in most cases. I also have seen where the new guys, like myself have a disadvantage, not that I haven't read the rule book and tried to figure out what it means, but until a handler has been put in all the situations, he will not react in time to make a difference on the card. He might think about it on the ride home or later while discussing the rules with someone that does know. How about the "place of refuse" rule, I would say it is alot like what you are describing above. Someone not getting the minus they deserve.
Craig A. Tull
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
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Chuck Terry
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:26 pm
Braden: We discussed this THROUGHLY during the rules meeting. Terry Suddeth made the point as you brought up. I asked if his dog would harken and work the track even though he would not bark unless it was hot and he indicated that he would. I told Terry I was willing to accept striking in every dog that harkens in and works the track but Terry did not want his dog to be struck in for just checking. I understand this too! HOWEVER, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS (get struck in if there is a rabbit but not if one is not produced). A dog must be struck or not struck. Remember, those strike points will be MINUS if no rabbit is produced within 4 minutes of the initial strike! Mouth dogs will NOT benefit they will be MINUSED points - EVERY DOG THAT IS STRUCK IN WILL BE MINUSED. The silent ones will be the only ones who are spared if the others pop off. If they are mouthy and then stumble on a rabbit they just got lucky and that happens be not often! More times than not they will be caught in their LIE! Even if they do "get lucky", as Terry noted, a good hound will more than make up the ten points by getting the checks once the rabbit is up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope you will give this new format a try!
Craig, you are very correct on your accessment that the guy carrying the scorecard has a big advantage. And, there are a good number who will quickly take advantage to folks who do not know the rules. My response is that I would rather be "pencil whipped" by a judge standing next to me whose ruling can be questioned by the entire cast and possibly the Master of Hounds than to be "pensil whipped" by some judge out away from me that comes in with the line" what you hear standing in the road could be different than what I can see the dogs do". Well that could be true but it can also be used as a reason a fellow picked his buddy's dog over the dog that was actually doing what it sounded like in the road. I have corrected plenty of judges standing next to me, I don't have a chance with one a long ways off. And both set of judges make plenty of mistakes. And, as judge, I havbe been corrected for honest mistakes a number of times.
Well with the new format Dave, they are considering using the gallery plus a experienced judge running over the dogs to get a total score, wouldnt it be nice to be able to run in a format like that where you get the best of both worlds?
Or is that like PKC is to you with 2 sets of rules.
For some reason you keep missing my questions to you, what have you produced out of your dogs that is doing any good in any format?
With all your professional beagle knowledge I would think in 5 years of breeding beagles you would have a hold on it.
Or is that like PKC is to you with 2 sets of rules.
For some reason you keep missing my questions to you, what have you produced out of your dogs that is doing any good in any format?
With all your professional beagle knowledge I would think in 5 years of breeding beagles you would have a hold on it.
Trent
No one plans to Fail, they fail to Plan
No one plans to Fail, they fail to Plan
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dogrunnerone
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:10 pm
- Location: Indiana
Dave,
Pencil Whipped is just that. How do you fix it? You don't, as long as there are humans and competition involved and the will to win is greater then the will to do the right thing, then pencil whipping will occur. We will never agree on the judge thing and that is fine, I have been around enough to see the issues with both kinds. One thing I do want to state and that is, I have judged numerous casts, too many to even think about, and I have used the line "what it sounds like here wasn't what was happening up there" and I have never used it to make one dog win or lose. I will use it for people like yourself, that because of one reason or another, have never or can't run over their dogs and trust me you do not know what is going on up there all the time. I agree coonhunters make a living every night doing the same thing in the dark, but we are talking about striking and treeing a dog. True a good houndsman will be able to tell if a dog is barking at a fence or water or booger barking something, running with his head up or down. Checking trees and so on, but we are talking about giving mouth and making forward progress in the right direction to get check points, we are talking about being out there and seeing dog A go under a brush pile and pushing (jumping) a rabbit out to dog B on the outside and "B" site chasing, giving enough mouth to make it sound at the road he just jumped the rabbit. I have heard it many times in the gallery, Ole Joe just jumped that rabbit or Ole Joe is looking at that one. When in realality Lil Ann jumped it to Old Joe and it sounds like Old Joe is doing the work. How can you score this? A rabbit can't be brought back to the gun or to score a line with out the jump or strike, the rabbit can't be brought back without someone getting the check and keeping the line moving. How about the dog that is a total disruption to the race, who sees that at the road? Too many things happen that make a complete dog, then just being the first one to bark three times and the first one across a decided point for speed and drive. It turns a complete hour or two hour hunt into luck of being in the right place at the right time when more than one person is there to see it. Talk about turning rabbits, we all are spread out ( 4 of us/UKC) I hollar I got a line, obviously it is close or I wouldn't see it, what happens? Three other guys coming running over so they can see it and have their "voice" on judging. What's the difference? I could go on and on with the differences, but I am in favor of finding one that suits maybe both sides. Maybe UKC has something here, who knows? But if you make rules where it is a judgement call by a judge, if he is on the line or is he off, too much various among different areas and people. Some want them tight enough to throw a blanket over them and others allow some room. Let the dog decide who is best not the rules, figure that set of rules out and I think you have something. Remember it can't have human interaction or there could be "pencil whipping"!!!!!! That's why in my opinion difference is good, be it in dogs, rules or formats. Everyone should be able to find a place that "THEIR" kind of dog fits in. You may hate mine and I may hate yours, who knows.
Pencil Whipped is just that. How do you fix it? You don't, as long as there are humans and competition involved and the will to win is greater then the will to do the right thing, then pencil whipping will occur. We will never agree on the judge thing and that is fine, I have been around enough to see the issues with both kinds. One thing I do want to state and that is, I have judged numerous casts, too many to even think about, and I have used the line "what it sounds like here wasn't what was happening up there" and I have never used it to make one dog win or lose. I will use it for people like yourself, that because of one reason or another, have never or can't run over their dogs and trust me you do not know what is going on up there all the time. I agree coonhunters make a living every night doing the same thing in the dark, but we are talking about striking and treeing a dog. True a good houndsman will be able to tell if a dog is barking at a fence or water or booger barking something, running with his head up or down. Checking trees and so on, but we are talking about giving mouth and making forward progress in the right direction to get check points, we are talking about being out there and seeing dog A go under a brush pile and pushing (jumping) a rabbit out to dog B on the outside and "B" site chasing, giving enough mouth to make it sound at the road he just jumped the rabbit. I have heard it many times in the gallery, Ole Joe just jumped that rabbit or Ole Joe is looking at that one. When in realality Lil Ann jumped it to Old Joe and it sounds like Old Joe is doing the work. How can you score this? A rabbit can't be brought back to the gun or to score a line with out the jump or strike, the rabbit can't be brought back without someone getting the check and keeping the line moving. How about the dog that is a total disruption to the race, who sees that at the road? Too many things happen that make a complete dog, then just being the first one to bark three times and the first one across a decided point for speed and drive. It turns a complete hour or two hour hunt into luck of being in the right place at the right time when more than one person is there to see it. Talk about turning rabbits, we all are spread out ( 4 of us/UKC) I hollar I got a line, obviously it is close or I wouldn't see it, what happens? Three other guys coming running over so they can see it and have their "voice" on judging. What's the difference? I could go on and on with the differences, but I am in favor of finding one that suits maybe both sides. Maybe UKC has something here, who knows? But if you make rules where it is a judgement call by a judge, if he is on the line or is he off, too much various among different areas and people. Some want them tight enough to throw a blanket over them and others allow some room. Let the dog decide who is best not the rules, figure that set of rules out and I think you have something. Remember it can't have human interaction or there could be "pencil whipping"!!!!!! That's why in my opinion difference is good, be it in dogs, rules or formats. Everyone should be able to find a place that "THEIR" kind of dog fits in. You may hate mine and I may hate yours, who knows.
Craig A. Tull
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
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Ted Peercy
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:23 am
- Location: McMinnville, TN
Craig,
That was a very accurate post. In the 10 years that I've been in trialing, I've seen many beaglers come into trialing for the first time. Most of them wanted to stand on the road and fault the judge because he didn't have a score for everytime their dog barked. For the ones that eventually got off the road and started judging or at least following their dogs, they found their dogs had faults they never realized. I find it amazing that an experienced beagler would think he could call what his dog is doing by hearing it. But I did too until I started following them.
That was a very accurate post. In the 10 years that I've been in trialing, I've seen many beaglers come into trialing for the first time. Most of them wanted to stand on the road and fault the judge because he didn't have a score for everytime their dog barked. For the ones that eventually got off the road and started judging or at least following their dogs, they found their dogs had faults they never realized. I find it amazing that an experienced beagler would think he could call what his dog is doing by hearing it. But I did too until I started following them.
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WrongsideRandy
- Posts: 705
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:02 pm
- Location: Danville, IN
You guys hit it on the headTed Peercy wrote:Craig,
That was a very accurate post. In the 10 years that I've been in trialing, I've seen many beaglers come into trialing for the first time. Most of them wanted to stand on the road and fault the judge because he didn't have a score for everytime their dog barked. For the ones that eventually got off the road and started judging or at least following their dogs, they found their dogs had faults they never realized. I find it amazing that an experienced beagler would think he could call what his dog is doing by hearing it. But I did too until I started following them.
